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nucs this week
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Barbara
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Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Posts: 1574
Location: England/Co.Durham/Ebchester

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I clarify that the OP has already transferred the nuc to a full size Lang brood box? If so, I would leave them there until spring. Then I would be inclined to do the Taranov split into the TBH and if gizmo does not want to continue with the Lang, then wait for it to become queenright and sell it on. That way they can recoup their outlay on bees and hive box and continue with the TBH safe in the knowledge that they do not have to worry about the colony swarming that season.

If you decide to shake them into the TBH now, then I can't understand why you would not then chop and crop the existing comb and fasten onto tob bars once all the bees have been shaken off. It is such a waste of resources to ditch those combs and the colony will settle in the new hive much better if they are included. The comb can be easily cut out and attached to prepared rescue bars, rather than left on the Lang top bars with the resulting gaps causing a problem. Even if the brood gets chilled, they will still benefit from the comb and stores and we are only talking about a few combs, not a full size colony.

Just my thoughts

Barbara
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AndyC
Scout Bee


Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 301
Location: Uk/Horsham/RH13

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh Barbara have I gone off at an angle?

Did Gizmo not say in post one he has two Lang NUCs and a an empty TBH?

And now a NUC and a Lang brood box plus an empty TBH.

I thought he meant how does he get Lang frames into a TBH and we are clearly talking about how to get one of them into the TBH.

He can’t get them both in so the NUC is the obvious choice.

The Lang brood will be his first conventional hive alongside the TBH, won’t it?

For the newbie cutting and attaching brood foundation to top bars could be a worst nightmare situation however it is done, ie cut and shut comb or cut the top bars and attach them under.

Certainly if that can be done it works but so does the Taranov (not for the feint hearted or newbie IMHOJ if they are ready to swarm and the shake if the are newly established in the nuc or at a period when they have low sealed brood numbers.

How that equates to the climate in Florida I have no idea.
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Barbara
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Location: England/Co.Durham/Ebchester

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you shake them in and don't utilise those combs then starting with a nuc was a waste of time and the OP might as well have started with a package again.

This is the way I would do it and I see no reason why a beginner could not accomplish this with a little research and planning providing that the frames do not have plastic foundation .....

1. Prepare 8-10 rescue bars using a plain top bar and chicken wire.

2. A few days/week prior to commencing the work, block the entrance to the nuc on an evening when all the bees are in. move the TBH into the location the nuc has been in or as close as possible with the entrance pointing in the same direction. Place the nuc box intact inside the TBH and then unblock the entrance so that the bees get used to using the TBH entrance to access the nuc. Give them a few days/week to get the hang of it.

2.Choose a nice fine day when you have plenty of time and perhaps some help.

3. Set up a workstation away from the apiary with the rescue bars, a knife and wire cutters, a container with a lid for any honey comb you need to
trim off and perhaps a wet cloth to wipe honey off gloves.

4. Remove the nuc to a location 20 yards away from the TBH but also not near the work station. The foraging bees will already start migrating back to the TBH meaning that you have less bees to deal with in the nuc. You could even leave it for half an hour to deplete it a bit. You should see things start to get a bit busy around the TBH as the foragers try to figure out where home went!

5. Go through the hive to locate the queen (it should be easier as there will be less bees in the hive) and then choose a frame furthest from her, carry it to the TBH and shake the bees off it into the hive. Carry the frame to the workstation and cut the comb out of the frame. Cut the comb down the middle so that you have two rectangular sections and hang each one from the centre of a rescue bar... (they literally just hook on) ensuring they are the correct way up and then place them in the TBH. If there is a lot of honey in the top of the comb, making it heavy and unstable/difficult to handle, you could cut that off and just attach the brood comb below. The honey can be fed back to them later.

6. Go back to the nuc and find the comb with the queen on and check she is still there. Carry to the TBH (ideally in a cardboard box or similar to ensure she doesn't fall off and get lost.) Encourage the queen to go down onto the two rescue bars you have already hung in there (best not to shake the queen in case she gets injured) and then shake the rest of the bees into the TBH and repeat the same cut out and rescue bar procedure as before and add the rescue bars to the TBH.

7. Take each remaining frame and carry to the TBH, shake the bees in and then cut out and hang on rescue bars at the workstation and return to the TBH.

8. Finally, shake/brush the remaining bees out of the nuc and into the TBH and remove the nuc to a distant location so that the scent does not attract them back.

This procedure should not require any level of skill or knowledge just a bit of planning. The workstation should be mostly free of bees, making the comb cutting relatively straightforward and rescue bars made in advance are simple to use as the comb is just embedded into the spikes to hang under the bar. If the queen cannot be found, the first comb should probably be an outside one and just follow the same procedure with all and carry each one in the cardboard box to ensure she is not dropped off the comb in transit. You will start to see their behaviour change once the queen is in the hive. Even if the queen does get damaged during the process, at least they have the means (eggs/young brood) to rear a new one although I have no idea if there would be drones this late in the season in Florida to mate an emergency queen.

I really cannot comment on when would be the best time to do this but if they are getting cramped in the nuc and still foraging strongly and there is nectar and pollen still available, then go for it.

I will ask Patrick Thomas who is in Florida to check this thread and see if he can give some further insight or advice,. I really hate the idea of shaking them in and then wasting that comb and brood and there is a risk of absconding if they are parted from it.

Regards

Barbara
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eltalia
Guard Bee


Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Australia (Nth. Queensland)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barbara wrote:
I really cannot comment on when would be the best time to do this but if they are getting cramped in the nuc and still foraging strongly and there is nectar and pollen still available, then go for it.




@Barbara
G'day Barbara... I can see where @gismo posting October 03 is maybe ambiguous in sorting the actual situation today, 20days later, but I'll bet it's safe to assume at that place there are two Lang nucs, working, and a bunch of woodenware being put together in readiness. At least, in my experience there is how a newbie would approach what to them is daunting after losing one effort and spending $650...no?

I really cannot see how the colonys, either of them, in this short time would be "cramped"... not even one full brood cycle having been completed.
And regardless of the brutality/messiness of "cut and shut" or the disruption/disorientation of "shake - em out" it simply is not the right time anywhere to be attempting such manouveres.
I do believe your points on planning and setup are relevant and would advise @ gismo to take that message home.
Bees know what to do, it is just up to the beekeeper to provide one of the paths.
Not as an afterthought, but as part of any relocation method, a queen restricted entrance has to be in place on that TBH or risk repeating the last excercise in losing the game.

Bill
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Barbara
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Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Posts: 1574
Location: England/Co.Durham/Ebchester

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bill.

I hear what you are saying but I know Patrick does successful cut outs in Florida, almost all year round.... I have PM'd him to ask for input. It would certainly be unconscionable here at this time of year and by far the best course of action would be to leave them in the nuc until spring.

Quote:
As regards....Not as an afterthought, but as part of any relocation method, a queen restricted entrance has to be in place on that TBH or risk repeating the last excercise in losing the game.


I hate the idea of blocking the queen in. I feel that she should have the right to vote with her wings if she/they are unhappy with the accommodation provided. There may be something fundamentally amiss with the hive which threatens their health/wellbeing so I do my utmost to make a hive feel homely and attractive for bees and if they abscond then I feel it is my duty to figure out why and amend it. After all a colony risks it's survival by absconding so they usually have to have a good reason to want to leave. During swarming season that may be because they already located a better option elsewhere or they want to move away from the parent colony, but it may come down to them not liking the design or construction materials.

That is just my opinion and I respect that others are different
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eltalia
Guard Bee


Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Australia (Nth. Queensland)

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barbara wrote:
Hi Bill.
I hear what you are saying but I know Patrick does successful cut outs in Florida, almost all year round.... I have PM'd him to ask for input. It would certainly be unconscionable here at this time of year and by far the best course of action would be to leave them in the nuc until spring.

Pat does bloody good work, and I have certainly been there myself enough times to recognise Pat knows his stuff... it *is* a crying shame others much older than he, and also well practised in some fashion, do not take note of his work, happy only to criticise. I made an open offer to liase with Pat on some finer points of a trapout... a while back now.
Given my understanding of the climate a trapout is possible right now but unecessary where the boxes are not overcrowded right now.. which I fail to see would be happening.
@gismo could help himself out there with some photos of frames to allow
assessment by others.

Quote:

I hate the idea of blocking the queen in. I feel that she should have the right to vote with her wings if she/they are unhappy with the accommodation provided.

Forgive me smiling on reading that para Barbara.. and it is interesting thought so allow me to perhaps excite, or extend, that process, please :-)

How true it is with so many hardware structures developed Man goes to great lengths to encourage bees to deny themselves a plain ol' hollow log, anywhere - being Europe, the Americas or indeed Oceania.
Yet swarming season aside a colony of honeybees (any, including Trigona)
only vacate a 'home' to flee - as you rightly put, an unknown list of reasons.
However Man is not one of those reasons. Oddly enough bees do not know about Man until Man slaps them in a box, sometimes likely seeing Man as another pest to be overcome, or fled from.
Yet we love these bugs, wouldn't cause them harm knowingly and bend over backwards spending thousands of dollars - and hours typing - to save their little butts from demons they know nothing of.
So *how* do we show them the love, where is the convincing scenario which tells them it is safe, it is good, and you're crazy to leave?
The answer lies as it does with many aspects of the bee organism, control the egg production, temporarily - the bees will think it through when left to do what thay do.
So, in relocation of any type, we force egg laying on. The only sure method to do that is to confine the queen to laying where she is put, by us, Man.
This cannot be for any longer than the begining of newly capped brood as IF the colony is not happy they then must be allowed the choice - as you say. Any denial of that is going to kill them, slowy. However in 99.95% of relocations IF you show them the love, leave them bee to do bee things they will accept Man is no pest and stick around.
Mind you they won't love you back... but you get that on big projects ;-)

So, love them in placing a queen restrictor for the first 14 days - 4 to start laying and then wait for newly capped brood, then remove the restriction and wait for the love to come back .. and wait, an' wait ;-)

Think on those lines, Barbara... and maybe it will come where you feel more helpful in harbouring a colony over letting it have it's head and abscond simply because Man stepped on their world, albeit with the best of intentions... cheerio

Bill
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AndyC
Scout Bee


Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 301
Location: Uk/Horsham/RH13

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great explanation of the cut and shut method Barbara.

A sticky without doubt.

Not sure it’s for newbies and any brave souls that bite that particular bullet, should get a medal. IMHO.

The absconding risk is always there when trying to rehouse a colony but your right is greater when shaking them in and that’s why I shut them in and feed for a few days.

If he does decide to go for it he would have a better chance of success if he had some practical help from someone who has actually done it before.
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