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Harvesting honey from a Warre hive
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John B
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Location: UK, Blagdon, North Somerset

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:28 pm    Post subject: Harvesting honey from a Warre hive Reply with quote

As I understand the Warre system, honey is harvested in the Autumn from the top box, which may well have been used as brood comb for the previous one or two years. Whether the comb from the top box is centrifuged, or crushed and filtered, either way the honey is being extracted from comb which may well be contaminated by larva faeces.

Or have I missed something basic in the system?

John
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chaindrivecharlie
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John when bees first hatch their first job is to hygenically clean their cell out. They are very clean and honey stored there is very clean. If you follow WarrE to the letter. The comb is cut out every year and new comb replaces it next year. It is a simple system that will work very well for you. Here is a link to a French commercial operation that uses WarrE only.
I translated it for you through babelfish.
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=slv&lp=xx_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ruche-warre.com%2f

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wisbigcheese
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:13 am    Post subject: thanks for sharing Reply with quote

Just one or two questions . what is the dimentions of the warre hive , I really want to build a warre . I have seen several plans and all looks easy to make , are they the same dimentions as a langs hive?
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Cacklewack
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:58 am    Post subject: Re: thanks for sharing Reply with quote

wisbigcheese wrote:
Just one or two questions . what is the dimentions of the warre hive , I really want to build a warre . I have seen several plans and all looks easy to make , are they the same dimentions as a langs hive?


The following plan is what I use to build my Warres. The dimensions are about 13.4"x11.8"x8.3" in inches for the boxes. Warre, of course, used metric. The boxes are smaller than a typical Langstroth.

http://thebeespace.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/warre_hive_plans_english.pdf

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biobee
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be sure to read and study David Heaf's Warré site at http://warre.biobees.com

David and his wife translated Warré's work into English and there is a lot of good reading matter here.
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John B
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie, you know better than I that when you melt down old brood comb it contains at least two, if not three, cocoons from each larvae. When a larva defaecates and then sheds, those layers are left in the cell. After a bee hatches, the bees clean the cell, but don't pull out all the old cocoons and faeces. They just clean and polish for the queen to lay another egg in that cell. If that cell is subsequently used for honey storage, as it must in the Warre hive, then there just has to be a possibility that the extracted honey is tainted.

However, if it is possible to put a box with clean top bars on top of the bees' honey storage, so that the only honey harvested is from fresh wax, that's a different matter.

I asked this question because I seek knowledge from those who've already harvested from a Warre. I see the Warre as a good system, and am motivated to build at least one as an experiment, but I have no personal knowledge of harvesting at this present time except from British Nationals.

Regards, John
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FollowMeChaps
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: thanks for sharing Reply with quote

wisbigcheese wrote:
Just one or two questions . what is the dimentions of the warre hive , I really want to build a warre . I have seen several plans and all looks easy to make , are they the same dimentions as a langs hive?


wisbigcheese - In my opinion this site is really great for a step-by-step on how to build a Warre. It's American so gives units in inches for those who can't handle the complexities of the metric system! [Please don't take offence, that's a feeble attempt at British humour. Laughing ]
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John B wrote:
Charlie, you know better than I that when you melt down old brood comb it contains at least two, if not three, cocoons from each larvae. When a larva defaecates and then sheds, those layers are left in the cell. After a bee hatches, the bees clean the cell, but don't pull out all the old cocoons and faeces. They just clean and polish for the queen to lay another egg in that cell. If that cell is subsequently used for honey storage, as it must in the Warre hive, then there just has to be a possibility that the extracted honey is tainted.

However, if it is possible to put a box with clean top bars on top of the bees' honey storage, so that the only honey harvested is from fresh wax, that's a different matter.

I asked this question because I seek knowledge from those who've already harvested from a Warre. I see the Warre as a good system, and am motivated to build at least one as an experiment, but I have no personal knowledge of harvesting at this present time except from British Nationals.

Regards, John



Hi john

Great post, and one of the big issues commercial beekeepers are bound to use against Warre hives, although possibly not such a big problem with hTBHs, I'll be interested in the squeeze v melt comparisons members might make and how each effect honey quality.

Of course, some might say that commercially TBHs will never produce enough honey to make this an issue anyway as far a public honey consumption is concerned and that "environmentalist" customers might overlook such quality concerns whereas their customers will not.

My hope is that more and more farmers in the US will see TBH's as an achievable, low labour input solution to their pollination needs, so shifting the market available to US commercial outfits.


Peter
Cambridge UK
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John B
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Of course, some might say that commercially TBHs will never produce enough honey to make this an issue anyway as far a public honey consumption is concerned and that "environmentalist" customers might overlook such quality concerns whereas their customers will not.

My hope is that more and more farmers in the US will see TBH's as an achievable, low labour input solution to their pollination needs, so shifting the market available to US commercial outfits."


Peter, who knows what the future of beekeeping holds for us, both for amateur beekeepers with a couple of hives, to commercial beeks with hundreds. If, twenty years ago, you were able to tell a very experienced beekeeper that huge changes were just around the corner, you'd have been scoffed at. He'd have kept his bees in exactly the same way as the man who taught him, and the man before him, etc.

So to follow your point, I don't discount the possibility that even commercial keepers may have to dramatically change their practices, and may even be driven out of business because of the cost of change. It is possible that the whole face of beekeeping may be forced into encouraging many, many more amateurs keeping a half-dozen hives, to make up for the loss of the commercial side. And all encouraged and sponsored by a caring government who have enough vision to prevent the loss of our native bees. Rolling Eyes

Now, please can I get back to my original question? I need to hear from any of you guys or gals who have harvested from Warre hives. Is there a real risk of faecal contamination of honey, or am I concerning myself about nothing?

John
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Varrex
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John B
Quote:
Is there a real risk of faecal contamination of honey, or am I concerning myself about nothing?


No risk if you make toilet in your hive (bees toilet).
Just per idea how:

Wink
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John B
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing but it's not BeePee I'm concerned about, it's BeePoo! Laughing
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most concerns about beepoo and funny honey come from people never harvested crushed comb honey from fixed comb hives.

I crush the comb, let the honey run through a rough sieve, that's it. I let the honey running straight into the jar. No stirring at all - the honey stays smooth. Straight from the still hive warm comb into the jar. There is wax, pollen and other stuff floating atop the honey. I tell the people who eat the honey: Well, this is the build in medicine. Pollen is used in apitherapy (www.apitherapie.de) and strenghtens your immune system. The wax protects the honey from the outside air, so taste is saved and cristallisation goes smooth. So I charge one extra dollar for this special honey.



Just try it. The honey looks quite nice. The comb, wax and pollen is NOT dirty, does NOT smell dirty or such. Don't try that in a non-fixed comb hive (mobile comb with frames). That I did once and yes, that honey was ugly. In Warre hive the honey was always fine, I think that is the case in any fixed comb hive or hTBH (without foundations and such).

Bernhard
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
Don't try that in a non-fixed comb hive (mobile comb with frames). That I did once and yes, that honey was ugly. In Warre hive the honey was always fine, I think that is the case in any fixed comb hive or hTBH (without foundations and such).

Bernhard



Hi Bernhard

That is odd, I've crushed and then heated crystallized OSR honey after cutting out foundation drawn comb from my national hive supers and not had any such problem. Although I can imagine extracting back filled brood comb from conventional hives would taint the honey.

I wonder how you might account for a better honey being extracted from a Warre which has had brood reared in the comb compared to that extracted from a conventional super (either foundation or foundationless) that has had no brood reared in it? We are discussing possible fouling from brood comb after all, not possible chemical loads contained in commercially available foundation; or tainting from treatments.


Best regards

Peter
Cambridge UK
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Stevedore
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to "The Beekeeper's Handbook" by Diana Sammataro and Alphonse Avitabile:

Quote:
Cell preparation is accomplished by very young workers, only a few hours old. These young bees remove nearby cocoon remains and larval feces from brood cells. The cleaned cells are then acceptable by the queen, who will lay eggs in them. Honey and pollen will also be placed in cleaned cells. Any remaining and uncleanable surface is covered with fresh wax or propolis.


I have read elsewhere that healthy adult bees can hold their feces for up to four months and will never defecate anywhere near the nest.

I would think that the very antiseptic nature of honey would negate any detrimental effects of ingesting a little bee poo.
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John B
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a beekeeper of only two seasons experience, but I have two points on your reply, Steve. One is that I, and much more importantly my customers, don't want to "ingest even a little bee poo." I can't imagine that DEFRA would happily condone the sale of contaminated honey.

And as for young worker bees "removing cocoon remains and larval feces from brood cells", this can by no means be totally relied on, otherwise melted old brood comb would have no more debris in it than melted honey comb. This has not been my experience so far.

My motive for starting this thread was and still is because I want to be convinced by those with experience of "crush and strain" harvesting that it's going to be safe for me to harvest honey from Warre hives, and safe for my customers to eat it. Is the only way of doing this by placing a fresh box on top, and allowing the colony to fill freshly drawn comb exclusively for harvest? Has anyone tried this successfully?

John
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biobee
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John B wrote:
I'm a beekeeper of only two seasons experience, but I have two points on your reply, Steve. One is that I, and much more importantly my customers, don't want to "ingest even a little bee poo." I can't imagine that DEFRA would happily condone the sale of contaminated honey.

And as for young worker bees "removing cocoon remains and larval feces from brood cells", this can by no means be totally relied on, otherwise melted old brood comb would have no more debris in it than melted honey comb. This has not been my experience so far.

My motive for starting this thread was and still is because I want to be convinced by those with experience of "crush and strain" harvesting that it's going to be safe for me to harvest honey from Warre hives, and safe for my customers to eat it. Is the only way of doing this by placing a fresh box on top, and allowing the colony to fill freshly drawn comb exclusively for harvest? Has anyone tried this successfully?

John


I am not yet an experienced Warré beekeeper (only one hive so far, and not yet gone through a full season) but I have thought a lot about your first and subsequent posts and the responses and I find myself pulled in both directions.

I can see that you have a point when it comes to potential contamination, yet clearly a number of beekeepers use these hives successfully and have done for many years, and I have never heard of a case of 'contaminated honey'.

Bees do clean their cells, yet the debris remaining after melting old combs is not as 'clean smelling' as the pure wax from natural honeycomb. I imagine it is mostly propolis, but there is definitely something else there.

This is a question that I think deserves more consideration, and I don't think it has yet been satisfactorily or fully answered. I hope we have some more contributions from experienced Warré users.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biobee wrote:

Bees do clean their cells, yet the debris remaining after melting old combs is not as 'clean smelling' as the pure wax from natural honeycomb. I imagine it is mostly propolis, but there is definitely something else there.



Hi Phil

I'm sure you've put old brood combs through a solar wax extractor and can attest to the slabs of sticky cocoons than need scraping out once all the wax and any remaining honey has been melted out.

This topic has been discussed at length on other boards including David Heaf's and my understanding is there is quite allot of fetal excrement trapped between the progressive layers of polished out cocoons (there will be fewer such layers in any individual piece of Warre comb than in conventional brood comb, but just as many in a years worth of comb). However, whether any gets into honey if a careful approach to extraction is taken is not so clear.

Top supering of Warre's might be one solution to the problem yes, at least during a strong nectar flow, but whether or not that impacts upon other hive principles might need considering first.


Peter
Cambridge UK
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simply put No, not that i have ever heard of and if your concern is so great, which I respect, then don't do it period. But If i were you I would try the process of crush and extract and see for yourself because that seems to be the only way you will be convinced!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary wrote:
Simply put No, not that i have ever heard of and if your concern is so great, which I respect, then don't do it period. But If i were you I would try the process of crush and extract and see for yourself because that seems to be the only way you will be convinced!


Hi Gary

Sorry to be a tad dense, but to which post are you replying? What is it that you are saying "No" to?


Thanks


Peter
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary wrote:
.. see for yourself because that seems to be the only way you will be convinced!


100% agree

I never heared of someone who tried crushed honey from a Warre who was not liking the taste of the honey. In opposition I get very good feedback on the taste of the honey from people.

As I said, the wax, beebread and pollen floating on top of the honey is like a seal and is medicine in my eyes.

Taste it yourself. It is great.


Bernhard
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the cycle of a cell....

When bees arrive in a hollow tree they start drawing comb. At first they build comb for 20 000 cells - no more in natural conditions. After that they use that comb to buildup the population. That comb gets several cycles of brood in it.

One cycle:

The queen visits the cell, lays an egg and marks the cell with a special scent. This way the cell gets special attention by the bees. The egg sits there for three days. Then a larva hatches out of the egg and swims in Gelee Royal, a very very special food. The larva dreams for five days in that cell, then transforms into a pupa. The cell gets closed. The young bee hatches and immediately begins to clean cells which is her task for the first days in her life.

This cycle is repeated until forage and weather conditions are good enough to start the next building of comb. The comb gets drawn down further, the bees start backfilling the above cells with honey. Directly above the brood first pollen is stored and production of beebread is done in those cells.

Before honey, pollen or brood is put in, a cell gets cleaned very properly and covered with a thin film of propolis.


So...

- queen scent
- Gelee Royal
- beebread
- propolis

...are missing in fresh comb which receives honey straight away.

All this things are beneficial to human health and make up that little poo that even itself is possibly beneficial (because what do bees eat? Beebread and honey...).


There is too much panic out there about hygiene. The best hygiene is healthy food and there is nothing healthier than apiary products.


Bernhard
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good description Bernhard - thank you.
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Norm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posed the question from the first post in this thread to the Yahoo warre group.

This is the reply that David Heaf gave:-

Quote:
"As I understand the Warre system, honey is harvested in the
Autumn
from the top box, which may well have been used as brood comb for the
previous one or two years. Whether the comb from the top box is
centrifuged, or crushed and filtered, either way the honey is being
extracted from comb which may well be contaminated by larva faeces."

One might consider the following:

1) Bees clean the cells out scrupulously after a bee has hatched. (The bees
also clean up old super comb in frame hives that has overwintered and in the
meantime attracted a film of
mildew. Is the honey from supers any the purer?)
2) The comb in a Warré is in a continuous process of renewal and has gone
through only a season or two's worth of brood cycles before backfilling
occurs. Combs in the supers of framed hives are used over and over again for
30 years or more. The accumulation in them and subsequent leaching out into
the honey of pesticides and other artificial toxics is unknown.
3) The backfilled brood cells are incubated in the warmth in contact with
honey for
weeks if not months before the honey is harvested, giving plenty time for
any extractables there may be to diffuse into the honey -- and colour it if
any colouration occurs. Any honey extracted from brood comb in frames will
have at least this contact time with alleged faeces.
4) Vertical top-bar hives -- managed and harvested in the same way as Warré
hives -- have been in use for at least 500 years in Japan.
5) Vertical top-bar hives -- managed and harvested in the same way as
Warré hives -- have been in use in continental Europe for at least 200
years, Guillaume Louis Formanoir de Palteau (1712-?), book published in
1756, http://www.biobees.com/warre/palteau.htm). I have not heard of any
complaints about the honey.
6) Honey has been harvested from brood comb by honey hunters from wild
colonies and by beekeepers from skeps etc for millennia. It
was still recognised and bought as 'honey' and not as 'impure honey'. (It
may be that the flavour and bouquet is enhanced by being from brood comb.)
7) Several foods, e.g. whitebait, are eaten complete with the organismn's
faeces. These are usually avoided by anyone with copraphobia.
Cool Honey is bee spittle.
9) Honeydew is bee spittle from aphid sh1t.
10) There may be antibiotic and other microbe inhibitory substances in the
walls of brood comb which could enhance the qualities of the honey.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that about wraps it up then! Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Norm

I read David’s post on his board as well, and got the impression he was a bit frustrated and so threw together a quick ten-point-plan kind of response. I don't think it really addresses the topic in a positive way though....

Quote:


One might consider the following:

1) Bees clean the cells out scrupulously after a bee has hatched. (The bees
also clean up old super comb in frame hives that has overwintered and in the
meantime attracted a film of
mildew. Is the honey from supers any the purer?)

"scrupulously" implies they leave nothing behind, but they don't remove the cocoon, beneath which is trapped fetal excrement. So if you heavily crush and press brood comb you are likely to get more contamination than in supers that have not had a brood cycle.
Quote:

2) The comb in a Warré is in a continuous process of renewal and has gone
through only a season or two's worth of brood cycles before backfilling
occurs. Combs in the supers of framed hives are used over and over again for
30 years or more. The accumulation in them and subsequent leaching out into
the honey of pesticides and other artificial toxics is unknown.

Two different issues here, if you use foundationless super frames and cut out crush and strain the pesticide issue dissapears and your back on the back foot regarding fetal matter in brood comb.

Quote:

3) The backfilled brood cells are incubated in the warmth in contact with
honey for
weeks if not months before the honey is harvested, giving plenty time for
any extractables there may be to diffuse into the honey -- and colour it if
any colouration occurs. Any honey extracted from brood comb in frames will
have at least this contact time with alleged faeces.

Cells are polished out with a waterproof coating of propolis, so how is leaching going to happen if not even water can get into the cells to spoil the honey?

Quote:

4) Vertical top-bar hives -- managed and harvested in the same way as Warré
hives -- have been in use for at least 500 years in Japan.

In 1509 there were beehives in Japan? I'd like a reference. Asian countries eat all sorts of things, including bee larva when harvesting wild honey from cliffs, but I'm not sure my customers want a jar full of that I'm afraid.

Quote:

5) Vertical top-bar hives -- managed and harvested in the same way as
Warré hives -- have been in use in continental Europe for at least 200
years, Guillaume Louis Formanoir de Palteau (1712-?), book published in
1756, http://www.biobees.com/warre/palteau.htm). I have not heard of any
complaints about the honey.

Now that does make sense, bravo.

Quote:

6) Honey has been harvested from brood comb by honey hunters from wild
colonies and by beekeepers from skeps etc for millennia. It
was still recognised and bought as 'honey' and not as 'impure honey'. (It
may be that the flavour and bouquet is enhanced by being from brood comb.)

Equally it may be that the flavor is not improved. Skeppists would separate brood comb from honey comb when harvesting. Our local honey show included an unfiltered section this year. Some entries were disqualified because they had bee legs in, I doubt they would have tasted anything other than slightly crunchy, but not even the honey judge wanted to find out.

Quote:

7) Several foods, e.g. whitebait, are eaten complete with the organismn's
faeces. These are usually avoided by anyone with copraphobia.

There are allowable levels of contaminate in all kinds of foods, I wonder how many people know the levels of rat feces allowed in products like white bread, I think you'd be amazed, and most customers appalled, great for sales!

Quote:

Cool Honey is bee spittle.

Yes, well, promote that sort of thinking and you'll not need to harvest as much honey as you'll be loosing customers (especially children) for life.

Quote:

9) Honeydew is bee spittle from aphid sh1t.

Yup, even less harvest needed now, why not devalue the product more so we shrink the market to match supply.

Quote:

10) There may be antibiotic and other microbe inhibitory substances in the
walls of brood comb which could enhance the qualities of the honey.

...and their equally might not, or worse, might be something bad that is only counteracted by the beneficial qualities of the honey itself.



I'm all for evidence that supports "natural beekeeping" but I don't believe "spin" convinces anyone other than the gullible. Surely if we want to be taken seriously we have to be serious!


Peter
Cambridge UK

P.S. I'm off away for the weekend, apologies if it takes a while to pick up any replies.
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Norm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter, the reason I transcribed David's answer from the Yahoo group is because no one here seems to have the experience or knowledge to provide a good authoratative answer. You say you read his reply there also! I am wondering why you choose here to direct your point by point analysis of his answer and not on Yahoo!
I am beginning to suspect your motives. Confused
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe, Norm, he got as totally fed up with the cr@p* on the Yahoo forum as I got fed up with the cr@p* on the BBKA forum.

Which is why I'm on this forum, asking the (so far) unanswered question! Call me pedantic, but I'm looking for concrete answers, not theories.

John
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John B wrote:
Maybe, Norm, he got as totally fed up with the cr@p* on the Yahoo forum as I got fed up with the cr@p* on the BBKA forum.

Which is why I'm on this forum, asking the (so far) unanswered question! Call me pedantic, but I'm looking for concrete answers, not theories.

John


John

Bernhard is pretty experienced in Warres- have a look at his site- as is David . Some of the rest of us have experience of the old ways but are on a learning curve with the new ways ; Warre and hTBH. So theories we have: hard facts we don't have.

Peter (pdcambs) is right when he says you'ld be amazed at the amount of rodent faeces allowed in bread wheat. I know that's not what customers want to hear, but, in a way, the reason we are in the place we are right now is partly due to customers (ourselves included) somehow seeing ourselves as 'outside' nature. Wanting to be 'sterile' and 'apart' from the natural world.

I know this doesn't answer your question. But we should not be afraid of the unknown.
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Stevedore
Scout Bee


Joined: 08 Jan 2009
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Location: Minerva, Stark County, Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would humbly suggest that those who are concerned about the purity of natural honey may continue to buy the pasteurized cr@p* that Walmart sells. Of course, it may be imported from China and contain lots of chloramphenicol, but it's cheap and probably "untainted" otherwise.
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FollowMeChaps
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Joined: 23 Jun 2008
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Location: North Somerset, SW UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John/Peter

I'm afraid I have to agree with Norm. You both seem to be looking for concrete answers where there obviously are none. In my view the benefit of sustainable beeks is that we do not need 'scientific proof' that something works - we are happy to look at the evidence, granted it is sometimes anecdotal, and draw conclusions from that.

That is the advantage of the human mind. Even a simple machine can draw conclusions from mere scientific data. We on the other had have the benefit of being ale to interpret and apply theory and weigh up the evidence. Look at the BBKA / pesticides issue as an example. The BBKA are happy to wait until there is proof positive that insecticides are harming our bees. Most of us (plus it seems 40% of their membership) feel this is downright irresponsible in that there is enough evidence around to suggest there is probably a problem. The likes of me would therefore agree to banning them now and only allow once they have been proved to be safe - independently that is, not by Bayer themselves. In my view if we wait for the science then we risk loosing the bees meanwhile.

David Heaf's excellent answer certainly does it for me.


Last edited by FollowMeChaps on Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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