Natural Beekeeping International Forum

[John B]

As I understand the Warre system, honey is harvested in the Autumn from the top box, which may well have been used as brood comb for the previous one or two years. Whether the comb from the top box is centrifuged, or crushed and filtered, either way the honey is being extracted from comb which may well be contaminated by larva faeces.

Or have I missed something basic in the system?

John

[chaindrivecharlie]

John when bees first hatch their first job is to hygenically clean their cell out. They are very clean and honey stored there is very clean. If you follow WarrE to the letter. The comb is cut out every year and new comb replaces it next year. It is a simple system that will work very well for you. Here is a link to a French commercial operation that uses WarrE only.
I translated it for you through babelfish.
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=slv&lp=xx_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ruche-warre.com%2f

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[wisbigcheese]

Just one or two questions . what is the dimentions of the warre hive , I really want to build a warre . I have seen several plans and all looks easy to make , are they the same dimentions as a langs hive?

[Cacklewack]

[biobee]

Be sure to read and study David Heaf's Warré site at http://warre.biobees.com

David and his wife translated Warré's work into English and there is a lot of good reading matter here.

[John B]

Charlie, you know better than I that when you melt down old brood comb it contains at least two, if not three, cocoons from each larvae. When a larva defaecates and then sheds, those layers are left in the cell. After a bee hatches, the bees clean the cell, but don't pull out all the old cocoons and faeces. They just clean and polish for the queen to lay another egg in that cell. If that cell is subsequently used for honey storage, as it must in the Warre hive, then there just has to be a possibility that the extracted honey is tainted.

However, if it is possible to put a box with clean top bars on top of the bees' honey storage, so that the only honey harvested is from fresh wax, that's a different matter.

I asked this question because I seek knowledge from those who've already harvested from a Warre. I see the Warre as a good system, and am motivated to build at least one as an experiment, but I have no personal knowledge of harvesting at this present time except from British Nationals.

Regards, John

[FollowMeChaps]

[pdcambs]

[John B]

"Of course, some might say that commercially TBHs will never produce enough honey to make this an issue anyway as far a public honey consumption is concerned and that "environmentalist" customers might overlook such quality concerns whereas their customers will not.

My hope is that more and more farmers in the US will see TBH's as an achievable, low labour input solution to their pollination needs, so shifting the market available to US commercial outfits."


Peter, who knows what the future of beekeeping holds for us, both for amateur beekeepers with a couple of hives, to commercial beeks with hundreds. If, twenty years ago, you were able to tell a very experienced beekeeper that huge changes were just around the corner, you'd have been scoffed at. He'd have kept his bees in exactly the same way as the man who taught him, and the man before him, etc.

So to follow your point, I don't discount the possibility that even commercial keepers may have to dramatically change their practices, and may even be driven out of business because of the cost of change. It is possible that the whole face of beekeeping may be forced into encouraging many, many more amateurs keeping a half-dozen hives, to make up for the loss of the commercial side. And all encouraged and sponsored by a caring government who have enough vision to prevent the loss of our native bees.

Now, please can I get back to my original question? I need to hear from any of you guys or gals who have harvested from Warre hives. Is there a real risk of faecal contamination of honey, or am I concerning myself about nothing?

John

[Varrex]

John B

[John B]

but it's not BeePee I'm concerned about, it's BeePoo!

[zaunreiter]

Most concerns about beepoo and funny honey come from people never harvested crushed comb honey from fixed comb hives.

I crush the comb, let the honey run through a rough sieve, that's it. I let the honey running straight into the jar. No stirring at all - the honey stays smooth. Straight from the still hive warm comb into the jar. There is wax, pollen and other stuff floating atop the honey. I tell the people who eat the honey: Well, this is the build in medicine. Pollen is used in apitherapy (www.apitherapie.de) and strenghtens your immune system. The wax protects the honey from the outside air, so taste is saved and cristallisation goes smooth. So I charge one extra dollar for this special honey.



Just try it. The honey looks quite nice. The comb, wax and pollen is NOT dirty, does NOT smell dirty or such. Don't try that in a non-fixed comb hive (mobile comb with frames). That I did once and yes, that honey was ugly. In Warre hive the honey was always fine, I think that is the case in any fixed comb hive or hTBH (without foundations and such).

Bernhard

[pdcambs]

[Stevedore]

According to "The Beekeeper's Handbook" by Diana Sammataro and Alphonse Avitabile:

[John B]

I'm a beekeeper of only two seasons experience, but I have two points on your reply, Steve. One is that I, and much more importantly my customers, don't want to "ingest even a little bee poo." I can't imagine that DEFRA would happily condone the sale of contaminated honey.

And as for young worker bees "removing cocoon remains and larval feces from brood cells", this can by no means be totally relied on, otherwise melted old brood comb would have no more debris in it than melted honey comb. This has not been my experience so far.

My motive for starting this thread was and still is because I want to be convinced by those with experience of "crush and strain" harvesting that it's going to be safe for me to harvest honey from Warre hives, and safe for my customers to eat it. Is the only way of doing this by placing a fresh box on top, and allowing the colony to fill freshly drawn comb exclusively for harvest? Has anyone tried this successfully?

John

[biobee]

[pdcambs]

[Gary]

Simply put No, not that i have ever heard of and if your concern is so great, which I respect, then don't do it period. But If i were you I would try the process of crush and extract and see for yourself because that seems to be the only way you will be convinced!

[pdcambs]

[zaunreiter]

[zaunreiter]

What is the cycle of a cell....

When bees arrive in a hollow tree they start drawing comb. At first they build comb for 20 000 cells - no more in natural conditions. After that they use that comb to buildup the population. That comb gets several cycles of brood in it.

One cycle:

The queen visits the cell, lays an egg and marks the cell with a special scent. This way the cell gets special attention by the bees. The egg sits there for three days. Then a larva hatches out of the egg and swims in Gelee Royal, a very very special food. The larva dreams for five days in that cell, then transforms into a pupa. The cell gets closed. The young bee hatches and immediately begins to clean cells which is her task for the first days in her life.

This cycle is repeated until forage and weather conditions are good enough to start the next building of comb. The comb gets drawn down further, the bees start backfilling the above cells with honey. Directly above the brood first pollen is stored and production of beebread is done in those cells.

Before honey, pollen or brood is put in, a cell gets cleaned very properly and covered with a thin film of propolis.


So...

- queen scent
- Gelee Royal
- beebread
- propolis

...are missing in fresh comb which receives honey straight away.

All this things are beneficial to human health and make up that little poo that even itself is possibly beneficial (because what do bees eat? Beebread and honey...).


There is too much panic out there about hygiene. The best hygiene is healthy food and there is nothing healthier than apiary products.


Bernhard

[biobee]

Good description Bernhard - thank you.

[Norm]

I posed the question from the first post in this thread to the Yahoo warre group.

This is the reply that David Heaf gave:-

[biobee]

I guess that about wraps it up then!

[pdcambs]

Hi Norm

I read David’s post on his board as well, and got the impression he was a bit frustrated and so threw together a quick ten-point-plan kind of response. I don't think it really addresses the topic in a positive way though....

[Norm]

Peter, the reason I transcribed David's answer from the Yahoo group is because no one here seems to have the experience or knowledge to provide a good authoratative answer. You say you read his reply there also! I am wondering why you choose here to direct your point by point analysis of his answer and not on Yahoo!
I am beginning to suspect your motives.

[John B]

Maybe, Norm, he got as totally fed up with the cr@p* on the Yahoo forum as I got fed up with the cr@p* on the BBKA forum.

Which is why I'm on this forum, asking the (so far) unanswered question! Call me pedantic, but I'm looking for concrete answers, not theories.

John

[Gareth]

[Stevedore]

I would humbly suggest that those who are concerned about the purity of natural honey may continue to buy the pasteurized cr@p* that Walmart sells. Of course, it may be imported from China and contain lots of chloramphenicol, but it's cheap and probably "untainted" otherwise.
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[FollowMeChaps]

John/Peter

I'm afraid I have to agree with Norm. You both seem to be looking for concrete answers where there obviously are none. In my view the benefit of sustainable beeks is that we do not need 'scientific proof' that something works - we are happy to look at the evidence, granted it is sometimes anecdotal, and draw conclusions from that.

That is the advantage of the human mind. Even a simple machine can draw conclusions from mere scientific data. We on the other had have the benefit of being ale to interpret and apply theory and weigh up the evidence. Look at the BBKA / pesticides issue as an example. The BBKA are happy to wait until there is proof positive that insecticides are harming our bees. Most of us (plus it seems 40% of their membership) feel this is downright irresponsible in that there is enough evidence around to suggest there is probably a problem. The likes of me would therefore agree to banning them now and only allow once they have been proved to be safe - independently that is, not by Bayer themselves. In my view if we wait for the science then we risk loosing the bees meanwhile.

David Heaf's excellent answer certainly does it for me.