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Would you use the perfect miticide?

 
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Quest for the Good Life
Nurse Bee


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 39
Location: UK, Lincolnshire, nr Sleaford

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Would you use the perfect miticide? Reply with quote

Forgive me for being a fantasist here but how would you react to this situation . . .

The year is 2019 and the good news is that a large German chemical company in funded by the countries bee keeping groups, has developed a 100% guaranteed varroa treatment with minimal effect on the bees (say <1% loss).

All feral bees have gone so the only stocks are in bee keepers hands.

By treating all hives varroa would disappear. The only mites left would be in hives that were un-treated.

Would you treat your hives?
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Barbara
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I'm afraid I'm not going to vote on this because to me it's a rediculous question...... The big German company in question is already in bed with our national beekeeping organisation and would have you believe that their products are totally safe for bees......

My bee inspector told me a few years ago that there were no remaining feral bees .....,

I don't believe either statement and like Gareth I don't believe in utopian wonder drugs with no side effects.

I have in the past treated my bees with Apistan and Apiguard. I would not use Apistan again now that I have discovered this site which has opened my eyes to a whole new enlightened world of beekeeping. I do however have 2 trays of Apiguard left in my beek box and as the active ingredient is thymol which is a chemical found in thyme and a constituent of the essential oil treatment, I might be inclined to use them if one of my hives was in a really bad state. Anyway, I hate waste, so throwing them out is not an option!! I will not be buying anymore though.

I have however bought thyme essential oil and I'm experimenting with feeding my bees a few drops of that and lemongrass oil in syrup to help with varroa and chalkbrood.

Regards

Barbara
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Gareth
Wise Bee


Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barbara wrote:
Hi

My bee inspector told me a few years ago that there were no remaining feral bees



Funny old world; my local inspector commented that there are more feral colonies out there than folk would have you believe. I often wonder if the denial that feral colonies exist is to do with the idea that, if feral colonies exist, they obviously do so without the help of humans or chemical companies?
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Quest for the Good Life
Nurse Bee


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 39
Location: UK, Lincolnshire, nr Sleaford

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Yes I suppose it is a ridiculous question but . . . Reply with quote

Barbara, thanks for your comments.

I appreciate what you say and I am digging into the moral fibre of natural bee keeping I suppose in an attempt to try and understand it more deeply.

Your comments are very much based on the here and now and the feelings that are current within bee keeping and it is very hard to think that any good could come out of the large chemical companies.

I do wonder what would happen though if a major shift happened (yes my scenario is perhaps a bit provocative), and just if one day, these companies actually did something useful?????

David
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trekmate
Golden Bee


Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 1125
Location: UK, North Yorkshire, Bentham

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Yes I suppose it is a ridiculous question but . . . Reply with quote

Quest for the Good Life wrote:
.......and just if one day, these companies actually did something useful?????

David


Assuming it was the company telling us that they had done something useful, I wouldn't believe them, as they appear to lie so readily!

If they had been proven to be right, I still wouldn't use their products as I think we need to help bees return to being more self sufficient and NOT reliant on us to keep them alive.

Quest for the Good Life wrote:
.....I am digging into the moral fibre of natural bee keeping.......


You'll find us on a high moral fibre diet here!! Very Happy
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Tavascarow
Silver Bee


Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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Location: UK Cornwall Snozzle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not the 1% bee kill that bothers me but the 1% of mites that would no doubt show resistance to the chemical.
Coming from a conventional beekeeping background which started about the same time as varroa was introduced & having used bayvarol regularly in the past, I know how quickly that 1% can turn into 99%.
The way forward is to select from resistant stocks (as is happening in many apiaries throughout the land, from all types of beekeepers both large & small).

Also any involvement with a large company & you have to also take their profit motive into consideration.
Just as a parasite doesn't kill its host until it has had a chance to infect another neither does a corporate company deliberately kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
So they might say they have the 'perfect' acaricide, but in truth they know that in 5 or 10 years they will be able to produce another more expensive new product we will all need because the last one didn't really do what it said on the tin & might have even contributed to an increased susceptibility to other diseases & ailments not immediately attributable to the said acaracide within the colony & possible external environmental damage as well.
So no, it doesn't exist & anyone who says it does is (IMHO) peddling snake oil. Wink
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Quest for the Good Life
Nurse Bee


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 39
Location: UK, Lincolnshire, nr Sleaford

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your interesting comments, and I make no apology for setting the scene with a controversial poll.

I know natural bee keeping is deeply set in it's methods and beliefs and that is quite clear from the comments here. Many of which I approve of for what it's worth (but not all perhaps).

Of course there are many views, a broad church (as I believe Phil Chandler said in one of his podcasts), but I do wonder how broad?

Is natural beekeeping polarised at one extreme end, just as commercial beekeeping is at the other?

How do the two eventually merge as one for the benefit of bees and bee keeping, or is it more of a takeover bid, one winning out over the other?
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trekmate
Golden Bee


Joined: 30 Nov 2009
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Location: UK, North Yorkshire, Bentham

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quest for the Good Life wrote:
Is natural beekeeping polarised at one extreme end, just as commercial beekeeping is at the other?

How do the two eventually merge as one for the benefit of bees and bee keeping, or is it more of a takeover bid, one winning out over the other?


As with many things in life, there are degrees of "natural". You'll find people here keeping bees on frames with some treatments to those with top-bar hive keepers who will not treat or feed under any circumstance. Most of us fit somewhere in the middle! It's for the individual to decide what fits their ethics, needs and ambitions.
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quest for a good life - strange name. Sounds like Bayer's: For a better life. Cool

Quest for the Good Life wrote:

How do the two eventually merge as one for the benefit of bees and bee keeping, or is it more of a takeover bid, one winning out over the other?


No, it is not about "winning". This games is not won by anyone ever. This is a loose-loose situation.

I do not support anything, if crime against humanity and crime against nature is involved. You can't undo that by "saving the bees". If I got to go the hard way instead of "throw the pill solution" - I'd rather go down the hard way. Live wild, die free. That's the way it is. Life has done a good job for trillions of years on Earth. So I trust the life's way.

I don't believe in a quest for a good life, neither in "a better life" created by companies, which have brought so much suffering in it's history. To both: humans and nature.

Look at their best selling product: anti-baby pill Yaz. Over 10,000 lawsuits, 200 girls dead. What the ... See: http://www.cbgnetwork.org/4173.html

I have talked myself to one young girl who barely survived the pill. We were protesting at the shareholder meeting last year. She almost died, has severe health issues now and got completely infertile. No babies for her. She is on medication for the rest of her life. Talk to those who suffer - that'll answer the question you asked.

I can't support such a company. No way.

Bernhard
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you reckon' - would you consider that "the perfect miticide" (for a better life....):

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7331

Cool

I warned ya.

Bernhard
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for being paranoid, you get paranoid once you notice them "working on things..."

No personal offense intended!

Bernhard
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Tavascarow
Silver Bee


Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 962
Location: UK Cornwall Snozzle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quest for the Good Life wrote:
Thanks for all your interesting comments, and I make no apology for setting the scene with a controversial poll.

I know natural bee keeping is deeply set in it's methods and beliefs and that is quite clear from the comments here. Many of which I approve of for what it's worth (but not all perhaps).

Of course there are many views, a broad church (as I believe Phil Chandler said in one of his podcasts), but I do wonder how broad?

Is natural beekeeping polarised at one extreme end, just as commercial beekeeping is at the other?

How do the two eventually merge as one for the benefit of bees and bee keeping, or is it more of a takeover bid, one winning out over the other?

It's not a case of one winning over another but doing what you feel is right for yourself, your bees & the environment.
Most forms of commercial animal husbandry are stuck in a Victorian Judeo/Christian mentality that says the world was created for man & also all within.
Respectful treatment of other creatures is way down on the priority list of most commercial producers.
Look at how our meat & dairy is being produced & relate it also to the way we have treated our bees in the past.
Learning from nature not trying to control her is the way forward.
It's what our ancestors did before parasitic corporate boards existed & IMHO if we wish to continue as a species something we will have to learn again.
Smile
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imkeer
Foraging Bee


Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Would you use the perfect miticide? Reply with quote

I also would not use that stuff. And it has absolutely nothing to do with "being polarised at one extreme end"...
The as-natural-as-possible approach works successfully, so why should we use a hypothetical "perfect miticide".
I can not accept your suggestion that everyone here is "deeply set in it's methods and beliefs" Question
The percentage of beeks that are open to an apicentric method is rising quickly, and there are also many new beeks that start in this manner. There is no opposition between natural and commercial. It is a movement that's looking for coöperation. Diversity is a good thing, and therefore I also can't accept the idea that wiping out an entire species would be a good thing Exclamation
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biobee
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Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quest for the Good Life wrote:

I know natural bee keeping is deeply set in it's methods and beliefs and that is quite clear from the comments here.


If you think that, then you heed to read around this forum some more.

Five years ago, nobody had heard of 'natural beekeeping', so I think it is a little early to suggest that anyone is 'deeply set' in any methods. We are all experimenting and on a constant quest for improvement. Conventional beekeeping, on the other hand, has been practised in much the same way since 1852.

Quote:
Is natural beekeeping polarised at one extreme end, just as commercial beekeeping is at the other? How do the two eventually merge as one for the benefit of bees and bee keeping, or is it more of a takeover bid, one winning out over the other?


You seem intent on creating a false dichotomy and I wonder if you are being deliberately provocative for reasons of your own. Setting oneself (or one's arguments) up as the 'happy medium between two extreme positions' is one of the oldest political tricks in the book.

Are you really testing our moral integrity, or do you have another motive?
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Quest for the Good Life
Nurse Bee


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Wow, so many replies, where to begin Reply with quote

Firstly thank you to all of you for taking the time to reply.

Phil, I am certainly not trying to create a false dichotomy. I am being provocative because that's often the only time you get the best answers
I have no other motive. I am an organic gardener, campaigner against intensive cattle farming and a complete supporter of doing things the natural way. Natural beekeeping is therefore the "logical" extension of the way I do things. I look at bee keeping and organic gardening holistically.

No Bernhard, "Quest for the good life" is not some link to Bayer, sorry.

I think trekmate hits the nail, there are degrees of "natural" and I'm curious to learn where they start and end really. I would not use chemical miticides (who ever makes them) but I would use essential oils. I do use national hives but am about to build one of Phil's TBH. I am a member of the BBKA, but also learn alot from this forum.
So personally I "sit on the fence", or as I see it get something from both worlds.

But to be honest, I have learnt more from this thread than any others about the passion of natural bee keeping and for that I thank you.

I take this opportunity to apologise to those who may have been offended by my bluntness, no harm was intended.

David @ Quest for the good life
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trekmate
Golden Bee


Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 1125
Location: UK, North Yorkshire, Bentham

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow, so many replies, where to begin Reply with quote

Quest for the Good Life wrote:
.......I think trekmate hits the nail, there are degrees of "natural" and I'm curious to learn where they start and end really.......

Strange, I usually hit my thumb! Embarassed

I believe that's for our individual consciences to decide. What suits one person's needs may be miles off of another's.
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biobee
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow, so many replies, where to begin Reply with quote

Quest for the Good Life wrote:


I take this opportunity to apologise to those who may have been offended by my bluntness, no harm was intended.



No offense taken by me. You may notice that I have a tendency to come straight to the point; I find that this usually sorts the 'honest enquirers' from the trolls!

There is plenty of room for disagreement and honest discussion here, so don't be afraid to be a bit controversial. Once we are comfortable with you and understand your motivations, we are pretty tolerant.
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Quest for the Good Life
Nurse Bee


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Please to hear it Reply with quote

I agree once again with trekmate that it is for individuals to decide. Of course of all of the ones registered on this forum, you hear but a few of them.

The vast majority are rarely heard. These are perhaps the modest "middle ground" where many sit on the fence like me and observe.

Also Phil, I have no problem with any one coming straight to the point, but I do push, pull and provoke to get the best information available at the time.

For those of you who have already been to my web site via the members list, will know that what you see is what you get.

I don't think I'm a troll but I am growing hair in places I shouldn't, so you never know!

David
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