friends of the bees

This forum is funded by
Friends of the Bees.
It is free to everyone, and we would appreciate a donation from those who can afford it so we can keep it free for those who cannot.

UK beekeepers join now and benefit from £5M Public Liability Insurance FREE with membership. JOIN HERE


Natural Beekeeping Forum
low-cost, low-impact, sustainable beekeeping for everyone

 Forum FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Please Read The Rules before posting.

BOOK NOW
B=beginners I=intermediate A=advanced E=event more

INTERNATIONAL
* The Bee-Friendly Zone
* Natural Beekeeping online course
* UK, USA and CA Swarm Catchers

UK
* UK Natural beekeeping courses
* UK Natural beekeeping events
* UK Plants database
* UK DEFRA advisory info


FREE HIVE PLANS
* Phil Chandler - hTBH
* John Vendy - hTBH
* Warre hive plans


Share |
natural beekeeping forum rss feedRSS

Follow forum on Twitter

Join the BeeAlert email list for advance notice of events, courses, etc.
Public Liability

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    beekeeping forum -> Ask a Bee Inspector
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Adam Rose
Scout Bee


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Posts: 270
Location: Manchester, UK

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Public Liability Reply with quote

We're engaged in a conversation with the rangers and others in a local park about having bees in a fruit garden there. They have raised the issue of public liability insurance. They raised the scenario of "person A deliberately knocks the hive over, person B gets stung as they are out walking the dog, person B sues the council".

So ... is there any public liability issue in the case of bees ?

Thanks,
Adam.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
biobee
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 7599
Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know of no case where a beekeeper has been successfully sued by someone who has merely been stung. After all, anyone can get stung anytime, almost anywhere, if an aggrieved bee takes a dislike to them.

Then there is the question of the identity parade....

However, some landowners will insist that you have PL insurance.

Friends of the Bees hope to be able to offer a policy quite soon...
_________________
The Barefoot Beekeeper
podcast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adam Rose
Scout Bee


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Posts: 270
Location: Manchester, UK

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. Yes, I made all those points. I think the simplest solution is to join my local beekeepers association, which apparently includes public liability insurance. The park people are really being very helpful, but I think they have a tick list that they just have to go through, and this is one of the items on it. I also have to do a risk assessment ! Again, they said they would help me with this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FollowMeChaps
Golden Bee


Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 1554
Location: North Somerset, SW UK

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's certainly the easy option for you is to join the local BKA but this will also serve to put another tick in the BBKA supporters club as you will have to also join them to get the insurance. Can't you argue with the council rather than just rolling over or nothing will change. If they really are conservation rangers they should be interested in why you don't want to go that route.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cmaryon
Scout Bee


Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 300
Location: UK, Northamptonshire, Northampton

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing about public liability insurance (and why so many contractual partners insist you have it, not just in beekeeping but generally) is that it pays for your legal defence even if you are found not to be liable . It's all very well making the case here and elsewhere that such cases are spurious, it will nevertheless cost you if someone sues you, even though it's almost impossible to prove your liability.

Indeed in civil cases (which lawsuits are), it's the respondent (ie you) who has the burden of proving innocence.

So if you have no ideological problem with joining the association, it can be the best way out of this one

Cathi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tavascarow
Silver Bee


Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 851
Location: UK Cornwall Snozzle

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you only want public liability you should be able to arrange it yourself through a broker.
It will undoubtedly be dearer than buying it through a larger group.
_________________
Don't worry
Bee happy.
Member of Cornwall Natural Beekeepers
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Natural_Beekeeping/index.php?showforum=4
http://www.fotothing.com/Tavascarow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
biobee
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 7599
Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tavascarow wrote:
If you only want public liability you should be able to arrange it yourself through a broker.
It will undoubtedly be dearer than buying it through a larger group.


Friends of the Bees are currently in negotiation with a broker and hope to be able to offer a low-cost group scheme by the end of March.
_________________
The Barefoot Beekeeper
podcast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Barbara
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Posts: 1336
Location: England/Co.Durham/Ebchester

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be great Phil if you can organise it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
trekmate
Silver Bee


Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 849
Location: UK, North Yorkshire, Bentham

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biobee wrote:
Friends of the Bees are currently in negotiation with a broker and hope to be able to offer a low-cost group scheme by the end of March.


I'm not usually in to predictions, but I forsee a drop in BBKA membership from April........ Laughing Cool
_________________
Beekeeping..... What a buzz!

http://benthambees.blogspot.com/

You must be the change you wish to see in the world. (Mahatma Gandhi)

2007 - started reading and learning, bees arrived 2010.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Adam Rose
Scout Bee


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Posts: 270
Location: Manchester, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: bee keepers associations Reply with quote

I am just starting beekeeping this year. I first went on a course at the local beekeeper's association. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have had the confidence to do anything at all. Since then, individual members from the beekeeping association have been very helpful. One gave me some wax, and another has promised to show me the ropes re: catching swarms. I am getting my first bees from the regional bee inspector.

I am starting with two top bar hives, one in my back garden and one in the Park, associated with an incredible edible fruit garden. The people who run the park have insisted on public liability insurance and some evidence that I am qualified to keep bees. The certificate I have got from the course run by the local association will help convince them that I am qualified. It's not that they are being awkward, it's just they have to show that they have done everything by the book. In fact the people who run the Park are being very helpful.

Another interesting experience I have had is that I attended a lecture at Halifax Bee Keepers association. The lecture was given by the people from Bee Credible from Todmorden. Although I had more or less decided to do top bar hives, meeting them gave me the final impetus to go ahead. The meeting was split into three groups : people who were doing top bar hives, people who were dead against it, and the majority who slightly wary but interested. I spoke to people I would put in all three groups after the meeting.

So ... while there may be all sorts of problems with the national association, I have had a lot of support one way or another, not just insurance, from the local associations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LoCo
Foraging Bee


Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 115
Location: manchester

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck Adam wishing you all the best this summer, let us know how things progressed.Very Happy

Quote:
Friends of the Bees are currently in negotiation with a broker and hope to be able to offer a low-cost group scheme by the end of March.


That's great news thank you Phil. Very Happy
_________________
Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cmaryon
Scout Bee


Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 300
Location: UK, Northamptonshire, Northampton

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some truly shocking attitudes in our association. The latest example comes from the association newsletter which contains a "joke" article, written by one of the leading lights, about natural beekeepers learning all their skills from the Internet and considering themselves experts and other such drivel. I have bitten my tongue and NOT written up a response to say that if he replaced the words "natural beekeeper" with "Negro" or "woman" he might see how offensive the article is, and putting "Not to be taken seriously" at the end doesn't make it OK.

Phew. Thanks for letting me get that out of my system.

Having said all that, the individual help I have received from several members of the association has been superb. I got my swarm from them and have received friendly followup enquiries after their progress and general indications of support. I have renewed my membership for this year (that was before I saw the above article!) and feel that on balance it is better to influence by example from the inside. Will I feel the same next year? Let's see Smile

Cathi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andycoles
House Bee


Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Posts: 12
Location: UK Cambridgeshire Peterborough

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Neophobic traditional beekeepers and the TBH supporters Reply with quote

Hi Cathi,

I have had a similar view from my local association. I must admit to being disillusioned with the Secretary's critical attitude towards TBH (posted on the forum earlier)

Perhaps us folk who are attracted to TBH beekeeping for environmental reasons are dangerous radical types who have no knowledge and no skills other than how to work a computer.

I would much prefer the old guard to see TBH beekeeping as a boon to the local bee population - a supply of drones, more colonies in the area to support survival locally, a chance for new hobbyists to contribute to the survival of the species.

Unfortunately I have lost my bees in my TBH this year - due in some part to my own inabilities and lack of experience I am sure. I hope to replace them with help from my bee buddy in the association. I hope I don't get a "told you so" attitude! Nevertheless I will be continuing and will be increasing my hives as I now have the time to concentrate on the hobby.

It was good to hear the BBKA ADM did not support the proposition from the Middlesex BKA to address the shortfalls of natural beekeeping, as that would have pushed me into leaving the local association. However, I would like to know what was supported in the alternative proposition to improve training - hopefully not some sort of Orwellian effort to dissuade newbies from TBH style of beekeeping.

So rant as much as you like - and if it gets too much we can always work together as a community to keep the back garden natural system alive and kicking.

Andy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FollowMeChaps
Golden Bee


Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 1554
Location: North Somerset, SW UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Neophobic traditional beekeepers and the TBH supporters Reply with quote

andycoles wrote:
......It was good to hear the BBKA ADM did not support the proposition from the Middlesex BKA to address the shortfalls of natural beekeeping, as that would have pushed me into leaving the local association. However, I would like to know what was supported in the alternative proposition to improve training - hopefully not some sort of Orwellian effort to dissuade newbies from TBH style of beekeeping.......


Not being in the BBKA can you tell us more about what they are now up to regarding natural beekeeping?

Sorry about you bees.

Robin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andycoles
House Bee


Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Posts: 12
Location: UK Cambridgeshire Peterborough

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Neophobic traditional beekeepers and the TBH supporters Reply with quote

[quote="FollowMeChaps"]
andycoles wrote:
.


Not being in the BBKA can you tell us more about what they are now up to regarding natural beekeeping? /quote]

Hi Robin,

Not having attended the ADM, I just saw a couple of lines in the BBKA newsletter for Mar 2012 p 24 . There was not enough detail to know exactly what the issues were that Middlesex BKA had referred to the meeting, but to quote the article,

" Middlesex BKA "call[ed] for a policy to address the shortfalls of "natural beekeeping" methods."

Perhaps it would be best to look at the Shropshire beekeepers Association website: http://www.shropshirebees.co.uk/january2012.htm which reports the following:

"another theme that has become more widely discussed is now coming to the fore, which is the merit of top-bar-hive beekeeping, as opposed to the much more widespread moveable-frame approach. The former has become particularly associated with the trend to ‘natural’ beekeeping that a growing minority of beekeepers now espouse, i.e. an approach that leaves the bees much more to their own devices with minimal involvement from the beekeeper, on the basis that man’s interference is doing more harm than good in respect of bee health and long term sustainability. Middlesex BKA is proposing that the BBKA should actively promote conventional beekeeping practices as a matter of policy, so as to counteract this trend, which it sees as creating problems in colony management, particularly with regard to swarming and the spread of disease."

This was not supported or adopted by the BBKA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FollowMeChaps
Golden Bee


Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 1554
Location: North Somerset, SW UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks Andy. Interesting to see that many of the UK Associations still just can't grasp that the world has changed.

You'd have thought, with so many taking up beekeeping with a prime motive of wanting to help the bee rather than take honey yet leaving within a year when they find out what's involved with their intensive husbandry practices, that they would have rumbled. Just shows how strong the old boy network is in such ultra conservative groups.

Lets be thankful that many are changing at least at grass roots level.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
biobee
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 7599
Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the problem here is not so much that people are unwilling to accept different ways of keeping bees (although some are so entrenched that nothing short of an earthquake would shift them) as the reasons they took up beekeeping in the first place.

The 'old school' were recruited to the BBKA mainly on a promise of 'free honey' and more than a hint of 'making money from honey'. In other words, their prime motivation was profit: a bit of extra (probably tax-free) income on the side.

Not surprising then if they become defensive about their 'factory farming' attitude to bees, when confronted by the 'new wave' or 'natural' beekeeper, who is concerned more about the welfare of bees than any sideline profit they may make from them.

BBKA have been preaching the Langstroth-derived, commercial-beekeeping-in-miniature line since their earliest days and we see them still doing it - even to the extent of taking dirty money from the very pesticide industry that is responsible for much of the harm currently being done to bees and our planet in general. We are offering a different attitude to bees and a different model for their welfare and it does not fit with their mental model - that is why they cannot understand us and continue to try to defend the old paradigm.

When they finally take off their blinkers and see that we do have a point, lets hope there are still bees left to 'keep'.
_________________
The Barefoot Beekeeper
podcast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tavascarow
Silver Bee


Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 851
Location: UK Cornwall Snozzle

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biobee wrote:


The 'old school' were recruited to the BBKA mainly on a promise of 'free honey' and more than a hint of 'making money from honey'. In other words, their prime motivation was profit: a bit of extra (probably tax-free) income on the side.


The history & traditions also attract those that tend to want the places of authority either locally or nationally.
The BBKA has a long history, & to some that's as, if not more important than the bees themselves.
That IMHO is why they are so derogatory to our craft,
All the spiel about disease & swarms & all the other disinformation they spread is because in truth they feel we are threatening their hold on power & history & traditions.
We have formed an alternative international beekeeping association here.
It's loose knit & has few rules other than politeness but it is definately an association.
Wink
_________________
Don't worry
Bee happy.
Member of Cornwall Natural Beekeepers
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Natural_Beekeeping/index.php?showforum=4
http://www.fotothing.com/Tavascarow


Last edited by Tavascarow on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
madasafish
Silver Bee


Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 788
Location: Stoke On Trent

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the history of nosema and varroa in beees, for the BBKA to witter on about "disease" in bees is just a little ironic...

( I speak as a BBKA member who visits our local Association Apiary weekly and have had nothing but support and help from members.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trekmate
Silver Bee


Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 849
Location: UK, North Yorkshire, Bentham

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biobee wrote:
......BBKA have been preaching the Langstroth-derived, commercial-beekeeping-in-miniature line since their earliest days and we see them still doing it - even to the extent of taking dirty money from the very pesticide industry that is responsible for much of the harm currently being done to bees and our planet in general. We are offering a different attitude to bees and a different model for their welfare and it does not fit with their mental model - that is why they cannot understand us and continue to try to defend the old paradigm.....


Exactly!

Presenting Natural Beekeeping to my local BKA, two questions were repeated and the audience struggled to grasp the concepts explained. The questions?
How much honey can you take?
How do you find the queen if she's not marked?

Interest in top-bar hive design and construction was good, but there was a difficulty around understanding the different management ideas.
_________________
Beekeeping..... What a buzz!

http://benthambees.blogspot.com/

You must be the change you wish to see in the world. (Mahatma Gandhi)

2007 - started reading and learning, bees arrived 2010.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cmaryon
Scout Bee


Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 300
Location: UK, Northamptonshire, Northampton

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah trekmate I love that one - "how do you find the queen?"

When I say "why do you want to find the queen?" they don't know what to say. One even said "to see how old she is." Not much renders me speechless Smile but that one was a good one.

How I laugh Smile

Cathi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Young
Scout Bee


Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 270
Location: High Weald, Kent, England

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The public Liability sounds too good to be true... I am in!

As it happens I found an association Yalding BBKA (not my nearest, but near enough) which welcomes, encourages and is proud of the diversity in bee-keeping. Although I am not a member, they still welcome me to meetings and the whole thing is very amicable despite mixed opinions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FollowMeChaps
Golden Bee


Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 1554
Location: North Somerset, SW UK

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One point that seems to continually be overlooked is that, for the most part, the main movers and shakers both at top level BBKA and local Associations often keep bees in bulk; for example our local self appointed queen has 50+ hives.

These what I'd call bee farmers clearly need different husbandry methods to the 2 or 3 hive back yard beekeeper. I therefore cannot undersatnd why these bee farmers are so often in charge of the teaching programmes for newbie hobby beekeepers just wanting one or two hives to help the bees. Question
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chardyboy
Foraging Bee


Joined: 09 May 2009
Posts: 194
Location: UK, Frimley, Surrey

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I've found this thread extremely interesting as a newbie about to join a local BKA. I almost joined 3yrs ago, but found the particular association quite snobby....and that was just via a few e-mails!!

I'm joining a different association who seem okay - and quite importantly are looking to open a couple of apiaries within a mile or two from my home which is cycleable.

I'm expecting the same sort of TBH phobia/resistance but each to their own - I see the TBH method as "free-range" and the other methods as "battery-bees" - battery hens were the norm for many years before people suddenly decided that it was wrong.....

Wish me luck - I've got a feeling I'm going to need it!!

Regards

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
biobee
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 7599
Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck, Dave!
_________________
The Barefoot Beekeeper
podcast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trekmate
Silver Bee


Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 849
Location: UK, North Yorkshire, Bentham

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Luck!

Not all local BKA's are as bad. Some members are more flexible & open than others! Be brave and jump in, you may be pleasantly surprised!
_________________
Beekeeping..... What a buzz!

http://benthambees.blogspot.com/

You must be the change you wish to see in the world. (Mahatma Gandhi)

2007 - started reading and learning, bees arrived 2010.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    beekeeping forum -> Ask a Bee Inspector All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Free ebooks from
Green Shopping


Anonymity Online
Protect your privacy. Defend yourself against network surveillance and traffic analysis
Tor Project
Protected by Anti-Spam ACP

Barefoot Beekeeper Podcast


If the player misbehaves you may need the latest version of Quicktime.

You can listen to previous natural beekeeping podcasts and if you want to listen on your iPod, iPad or iPhone you can install the Barefoot Beekeeper app on iTunes. If you like it, please rate and review it!

Conserving wild bees

Advice from Jessie Jowers of the Bee Guardian Foundation:

All the research suggests that bumble bee boxes have a very low success rate in actually attracting bees into them. We find that if you create an environment where first of all you can attract mice inside, such as a pile of stones, a drystone wall, paving slabs with intentionally made cavities underneath, this will increase the success rate.

Most bumble bee species need a dry space about the size a football, with a narrow entrance tunnel approximately 2cm in diameter and 20 cm long. Most species nest underground along the base of a linear feature such as a hedge or wall. Sites need to be sheltered and out of direct sunlight.

There is a spectacular display of wild bee hotels here

You can find out how to build homes for bumblebees or you can buy a ready-made bee house here.
Information about the Tree Bumblebee (Bombus hypnorum)
friends of the bees

This forum is funded by
Friends of the Bees.
It is free to everyone, and we would appreciate a donation from those who can afford it so we can keep it free for those who cannot.

UK beekeepers join now and benefit from £5M Public Liability Insurance FREE with membership. JOIN HERE


Always have your stuff with you

2Gb free




Now available from Lulu.com

PDF format here


Now available from Lulu.com

Epub, Kindle, PDF and other ebook formats here

Buy The Barefoot Beekeeper A4 format printed edition from Lulu.com available worldwide

Support independent publishing: Buy this book on Lulu.

Printed locally to you and delivered fast.

You can also order The Barefoot Beekeeper from your local book shop using
ISBN 978-1-4092-7114-7.

site map
php. BB © 2001, 2005 php. BB Group list admin

View topic - Public Liability - Natural Beekeeping Network Forum

My Garden School Award
Bee swarms in South Devon collected free