Natural Beekeeping Network

[Adam Rose]

We're engaged in a conversation with the rangers and others in a local park about having bees in a fruit garden there. They have raised the issue of public liability insurance. They raised the scenario of "person A deliberately knocks the hive over, person B gets stung as they are out walking the dog, person B sues the council".

So ... is there any public liability issue in the case of bees ?

Thanks,
Adam.

[biobee]

I know of no case where a beekeeper has been successfully sued by someone who has merely been stung. After all, anyone can get stung anytime, almost anywhere, if an aggrieved bee takes a dislike to them.

Then there is the question of the identity parade....

However, some landowners will insist that you have PL insurance.

Friends of the Bees hope to be able to offer a policy quite soon...
_________________
The Barefoot Beekeeper
podcast

[Adam Rose]

Thanks. Yes, I made all those points. I think the simplest solution is to join my local beekeepers association, which apparently includes public liability insurance. The park people are really being very helpful, but I think they have a tick list that they just have to go through, and this is one of the items on it. I also have to do a risk assessment ! Again, they said they would help me with this.

[FollowMeChaps]

It's certainly the easy option for you is to join the local BKA but this will also serve to put another tick in the BBKA supporters club as you will have to also join them to get the insurance. Can't you argue with the council rather than just rolling over or nothing will change. If they really are conservation rangers they should be interested in why you don't want to go that route.

[cmaryon]

The thing about public liability insurance (and why so many contractual partners insist you have it, not just in beekeeping but generally) is that it pays for your legal defence even if you are found not to be liable . It's all very well making the case here and elsewhere that such cases are spurious, it will nevertheless cost you if someone sues you, even though it's almost impossible to prove your liability.

Indeed in civil cases (which lawsuits are), it's the respondent (ie you) who has the burden of proving innocence.

So if you have no ideological problem with joining the association, it can be the best way out of this one

Cathi

[Tavascarow]

If you only want public liability you should be able to arrange it yourself through a broker.
It will undoubtedly be dearer than buying it through a larger group.
_________________
Don't worry
Bee happy.
Member of Cornwall Natural Beekeepers
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Natural_Beekeeping/index.php?showforum=4
http://www.fotothing.com/Tavascarow

[biobee]

[Barbara]

That would be great Phil if you can organise it!

[trekmate]

[Adam Rose]

I am just starting beekeeping this year. I first went on a course at the local beekeeper's association. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have had the confidence to do anything at all. Since then, individual members from the beekeeping association have been very helpful. One gave me some wax, and another has promised to show me the ropes re: catching swarms. I am getting my first bees from the regional bee inspector.

I am starting with two top bar hives, one in my back garden and one in the Park, associated with an incredible edible fruit garden. The people who run the park have insisted on public liability insurance and some evidence that I am qualified to keep bees. The certificate I have got from the course run by the local association will help convince them that I am qualified. It's not that they are being awkward, it's just they have to show that they have done everything by the book. In fact the people who run the Park are being very helpful.

Another interesting experience I have had is that I attended a lecture at Halifax Bee Keepers association. The lecture was given by the people from Bee Credible from Todmorden. Although I had more or less decided to do top bar hives, meeting them gave me the final impetus to go ahead. The meeting was split into three groups : people who were doing top bar hives, people who were dead against it, and the majority who slightly wary but interested. I spoke to people I would put in all three groups after the meeting.

So ... while there may be all sorts of problems with the national association, I have had a lot of support one way or another, not just insurance, from the local associations.

[LoCo]

Good luck Adam wishing you all the best this summer, let us know how things progressed.

[cmaryon]

There are some truly shocking attitudes in our association. The latest example comes from the association newsletter which contains a "joke" article, written by one of the leading lights, about natural beekeepers learning all their skills from the Internet and considering themselves experts and other such drivel. I have bitten my tongue and NOT written up a response to say that if he replaced the words "natural beekeeper" with "Negro" or "woman" he might see how offensive the article is, and putting "Not to be taken seriously" at the end doesn't make it OK.

Phew. Thanks for letting me get that out of my system.

Having said all that, the individual help I have received from several members of the association has been superb. I got my swarm from them and have received friendly followup enquiries after their progress and general indications of support. I have renewed my membership for this year (that was before I saw the above article!) and feel that on balance it is better to influence by example from the inside. Will I feel the same next year? Let's see

Cathi

[andycoles]

Hi Cathi,

I have had a similar view from my local association. I must admit to being disillusioned with the Secretary's critical attitude towards TBH (posted on the forum earlier)

Perhaps us folk who are attracted to TBH beekeeping for environmental reasons are dangerous radical types who have no knowledge and no skills other than how to work a computer.

I would much prefer the old guard to see TBH beekeeping as a boon to the local bee population - a supply of drones, more colonies in the area to support survival locally, a chance for new hobbyists to contribute to the survival of the species.

Unfortunately I have lost my bees in my TBH this year - due in some part to my own inabilities and lack of experience I am sure. I hope to replace them with help from my bee buddy in the association. I hope I don't get a "told you so" attitude! Nevertheless I will be continuing and will be increasing my hives as I now have the time to concentrate on the hobby.

It was good to hear the BBKA ADM did not support the proposition from the Middlesex BKA to address the shortfalls of natural beekeeping, as that would have pushed me into leaving the local association. However, I would like to know what was supported in the alternative proposition to improve training - hopefully not some sort of Orwellian effort to dissuade newbies from TBH style of beekeeping.

So rant as much as you like - and if it gets too much we can always work together as a community to keep the back garden natural system alive and kicking.

Andy

[FollowMeChaps]

[andycoles]

[quote="FollowMeChaps"]

[FollowMeChaps]

Many thanks Andy. Interesting to see that many of the UK Associations still just can't grasp that the world has changed.

You'd have thought, with so many taking up beekeeping with a prime motive of wanting to help the bee rather than take honey yet leaving within a year when they find out what's involved with their intensive husbandry practices, that they would have rumbled. Just shows how strong the old boy network is in such ultra conservative groups.

Lets be thankful that many are changing at least at grass roots level.

[biobee]

I think the problem here is not so much that people are unwilling to accept different ways of keeping bees (although some are so entrenched that nothing short of an earthquake would shift them) as the reasons they took up beekeeping in the first place.

The 'old school' were recruited to the BBKA mainly on a promise of 'free honey' and more than a hint of 'making money from honey'. In other words, their prime motivation was profit: a bit of extra (probably tax-free) income on the side.

Not surprising then if they become defensive about their 'factory farming' attitude to bees, when confronted by the 'new wave' or 'natural' beekeeper, who is concerned more about the welfare of bees than any sideline profit they may make from them.

BBKA have been preaching the Langstroth-derived, commercial-beekeeping-in-miniature line since their earliest days and we see them still doing it - even to the extent of taking dirty money from the very pesticide industry that is responsible for much of the harm currently being done to bees and our planet in general. We are offering a different attitude to bees and a different model for their welfare and it does not fit with their mental model - that is why they cannot understand us and continue to try to defend the old paradigm.

When they finally take off their blinkers and see that we do have a point, lets hope there are still bees left to 'keep'.
_________________
The Barefoot Beekeeper
podcast

[Tavascarow]

[madasafish]

Given the history of nosema and varroa in beees, for the BBKA to witter on about "disease" in bees is just a little ironic...

( I speak as a BBKA member who visits our local Association Apiary weekly and have had nothing but support and help from members.

[trekmate]

[cmaryon]

Ah trekmate I love that one - "how do you find the queen?"

When I say "why do you want to find the queen?" they don't know what to say. One even said "to see how old she is." Not much renders me speechless but that one was a good one.

How I laugh

Cathi

[Mark Young]

The public Liability sounds too good to be true... I am in!

As it happens I found an association Yalding BBKA (not my nearest, but near enough) which welcomes, encourages and is proud of the diversity in bee-keeping. Although I am not a member, they still welcome me to meetings and the whole thing is very amicable despite mixed opinions.

[FollowMeChaps]

One point that seems to continually be overlooked is that, for the most part, the main movers and shakers both at top level BBKA and local Associations often keep bees in bulk; for example our local self appointed queen has 50+ hives.

These what I'd call bee farmers clearly need different husbandry methods to the 2 or 3 hive back yard beekeeper. I therefore cannot undersatnd why these bee farmers are so often in charge of the teaching programmes for newbie hobby beekeepers just wanting one or two hives to help the bees.

[Chardyboy]

Hi,

I've found this thread extremely interesting as a newbie about to join a local BKA. I almost joined 3yrs ago, but found the particular association quite snobby....and that was just via a few e-mails!!

I'm joining a different association who seem okay - and quite importantly are looking to open a couple of apiaries within a mile or two from my home which is cycleable.

I'm expecting the same sort of TBH phobia/resistance but each to their own - I see the TBH method as "free-range" and the other methods as "battery-bees" - battery hens were the norm for many years before people suddenly decided that it was wrong.....

Wish me luck - I've got a feeling I'm going to need it!!

Regards

Dave

[biobee]

Good luck, Dave!
_________________
The Barefoot Beekeeper
podcast

[trekmate]

Good Luck!

Not all local BKA's are as bad. Some members are more flexible & open than others! Be brave and jump in, you may be pleasantly surprised!
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Beekeeping..... What a buzz!

http://benthambees.blogspot.com/

You must be the change you wish to see in the world. (Mahatma Gandhi)

2007 - started reading and learning, bees arrived 2010.