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Condensation and varroa! Missing link to survivalists
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CharlieBnoobee
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Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 97
Location: Virginia,USA; S. Appalachians;USDA zn. 6a

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:29 am    Post subject: Re: Ventilation/condensation Reply with quote

biobee wrote:
Their algorithm for this must take into account factors such as:

- number of bees present at night
- number of active foragers
- number of home and visiting drones
- rate of lay by queen
- amount of brood requiring stable temperature
- quantity of open stores
- thermal capacity of comb + contents
- ambient outside temperature
- death rate of workers
- quantity of pollen requiring storage
- relative humidity inside/outside
- temperature gradient (how quickly temp is rising/falling)

...and a thousand or so things I have not yet thought of.

Must make Google's algorithm look like a beginners exercise in coding in comparison!

And remind me - how big are their brains?


Good Grief! It looks like turtles all the way down!('Confused')
Seems we're all getting ignoranter and ignoranter the more we travel the road. Such a relief to know I'm in good company.

(Re turtles: Check wikipedia, Stephen Hawking, Turtles all the way down.)

Here I'm using the phrase to describe (to my pathetically limited thinking at least) ever deepening levels of irreducible complexity.


Last edited by CharlieBnoobee on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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CharlieBnoobee
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Location: Virginia,USA; S. Appalachians;USDA zn. 6a

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the starting days (Jan. 17–22) of this thread, Bernhard opens with "I think I got something" (major understatement, that) then Gareth posited the following:

"This suggests that a perfect hive (my emphasis) for Varroa control would be one that allows the bees to maintain as a high a humidity as possible in the brood cells.

So—

• Small entrance • No through ventilation • No bottom screen
• Old comb if possible (to buffer humidity) • Small cells??
• Non-porous hive walls?? "


This is actually an astonishing statement if you think about it. The implication seems to be that, apart from working out details and variations on the theme, the quest for the Perfect Hive is nearly over?!?

Being a rank beginner means that I had no drum to bang when I started researching all the claims and counter-claims being batted about regarding various aspects of The Proper & Perfect Hive. I came belatedly across this thread and after reading through the summaries of research (including that gruesomely translated Russian one) that Bernhard and others had linked to, it seemed that Gareth's conclusion is rather inescapable. Of course this is not to say that anyone has arrived yet. Quite the contrary, there's still a great deal of fun to be had working out ways to incorporate these (and other, perhaps still to be discovered,) essentials into any given embodiment of a hive design. Speaking only for myself, the ideas advanced in this one thread alone have dispelled much of the fog of uncertainty I was feeling as I've muddled/stumbled sort-of-forward to my own hive design.

Further thoughts and questions I'll post on the Warré/ vTBH forum since they're more appropriate to that hive type
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Sir David
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmmmmm

• Small entrance • No through ventilation • No bottom screen
• Old comb if possible (to buffer humidity) • Small cells??
• Non-porous hive walls?? "


Perone anyone ?
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madasafish
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Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 882
Location: Stoke On Trent

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir David wrote:
mmmmmm

• Small entrance • No through ventilation • No bottom screen
• Old comb if possible (to buffer humidity) • Small cells??
• Non-porous hive walls?? "


Perone anyone ?


My TBHs are like that:

Foil lined insulation (Celotex) on walls and roof, mesh floor closed with a bottom board, small entrance and oldish comb.

Seems to work a treat.
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Che Guebuddha
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Joined: 31 Jan 2012
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Location: Hårlev, Stevns Kommune, Denmark

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir David wrote:
mmmmmm

• Small entrance • No through ventilation • No bottom screen
• Old comb if possible (to buffer humidity) • Small cells??
• Non-porous hive walls?? "


Perone anyone ?


Yeah, I think Im going that direction with my future hives. Im in the middle of rebuilding my new hTBH into a (bit smaller 45x45cm) Perone Hive.

There isnt much info about it though.
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flybry
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Joined: 21 Nov 2010
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Location: UK Worcestershire Malvern

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm about to make another KTBH and was thinking of adding some features to control humidity level like altering the floor and making the slopping sides out of high pressure laminate. Then it dawned on me that I would have no real idea how effective the changes would be. So I'm thinking of putting in a few sensors like these.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DHT22-AM2302-Digital-Temperature-and-Humidity-Sensor-Replace-SHT11-SHT15-Logger-/180875239182?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BIEW%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D261070585099%26ps%3D54#ht_2812wt_840

I can connect as many as I like in a daisy-chain to a PC using USB adaptor
http://www.homechip.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30
Then I would be able to monitor levels 24/7
Any suggestion as to where I should place them?
Bryan
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catchercradle
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Joined: 31 May 2010
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Location: Cambridge, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can connect as many as I like in a daisy-chain to a PC using USB adaptor


There is a thread entitled "The Wired Hive" that is looking at the idea of monitoring various variables within a hive - temperature, humidity, sound, pressure sensors for weight to tell you when you can harvest honey etc.

Dave
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Paz
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Joined: 13 Apr 2010
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Location: UK, Dorset, Wimborne

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can connect as many as I like in a daisy-chain to a PC using USB adaptor


You need to be careful here. There are quite a few of these sensors and several variants around and they are not all the same. I have a couple on test at the moment although they are not yet in the hive. The ones I have cannot be daisy chained even though they are described and operate as one wire devices.

Paz
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flybry
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Joined: 21 Nov 2010
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Location: UK Worcestershire Malvern

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You need to be careful here. There are quite a few of these sensors and several variants around and they are not all the same. I have a couple on test at the moment although they are not yet in the hive. The ones I have cannot be daisy chained even though they are described and operate as one wire devices.

Paz
Thanks for the heads up on this. I asked the ebay seller and they said no.
Have you found a cheap H/T sensor that can be daisy chained?

Bryan.
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Buffy
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Joined: 16 Mar 2012
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Location: Dallas, TX USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering if using beeswax to seal the inside of the hive would encourage the bees to attach comb to the sides. That is what I put on the top bar to encourage them to put comb there. I would dread inspections if I had to cut every comb away from the wall every time I opened it up. I've haven't seen any attachments at all with plain wood.
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Paz
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Joined: 13 Apr 2010
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Location: UK, Dorset, Wimborne

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Have you found a cheap H/T sensor that can be daisy chained?


To be honest I haven't looked for that specifically. For my requirement I only need one humidity sensor but do need multiple temperature sensors, which are easy to find and daisy chain.

Paz
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CharlieBnoobee
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Joined: 11 Feb 2012
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Location: Virginia,USA; S. Appalachians;USDA zn. 6a

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:15 am    Post subject: Serendipity strikes again! Reply with quote

This thread has gotten stale, but this might refresh it a bit. On 7/20th at

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11035&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90
Phil responded to my question:
Quote:
6. However in the world do the bees control the atmosphere to achieve the delicate balance between just warm and dry enough to evaporate nectar water but not so dry (or cool) to allow mites to flourish?

Phil replies:
"IMO knowing that they do so control their environment and taking this awareness into the design of hives is more important that knowing exactly how they do it, interesting though that may be."
This wasn't overwhelmingly satisfying; nevertheless, I let it lie. Then, a couple of weeks ago, while trudging through a pdf referenced at some bee site (probably this one) by some praiseworthy albiet unsung and for now, at least, forgotten stalwart researcher, I found the following:

(Drum roll, if you please.)

Ladies and Gentlemen, and Phil especially, I give you the "how".
Ta-Daa!

Buried on pg. 24 a third of the way through a bone-in-Death-Valley-dry, scholarly pdf. on

"Honeybee Nutrition, Review of Research and Practices,
by the Australian Government Rural Industries Research
and Development Corporation"

(Googling all the set off quote above should find it.)
Honeybee nutrition?!! yet there it is.

Honeybees expend a considerable amount of energy maintaining the temperature within the hive to around 35-36°C. During cold weather, worker bees increase heat production by continuous contraction of the flight muscles without wing movement and, during hot weather, wing muscle contraction is associated with fanning movement of the wings (Heinrich, 1993). (ok, ok, moving on) When the hive is too hot or the humidity too low, water-collecting bees regurgitate water droplets to cover their combs with a thin layer of water, which evaporates to increases the cooling capacity of the colony (Schmaranzer, 2000). The optimum humidity for brood rearing is between 90 and 95% (Doull, 1976). Wing fanning is also stimulated by high concentrations of carbon dioxide to increase circulation within the hive when air movement is low during periods of colder weather (Seeley, 1974).

The salient clause "When the hive is too hot or the humidity too low, water-collecting bees regurgitate water droplets to cover their combs with a thin layer of water..." states the basic dynamics of their water transfer from condensing surface to brood nest—essentially identical to that used by generations of college fraternity boys to transfer vast quantities of cheap beer from keg to commode, namely the time-honored "Guzzle & Barf" method. If the keg is moved close to the bog, time and energy is saved. So supplying small condensate 'catch troughs' on the sides of the hive, just a couple of combs away from the brood, should in like fashion keep brood, bees, and beek happy.

That's quite OK, Phil, you needn't thank me. Mr. Green
CB
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biobee
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admirable determination in the face of tedious prose! Well done for tracking that down.

Very Happy
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flybry
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Joined: 21 Nov 2010
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Location: UK Worcestershire Malvern

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I've had my bees in the KTBH made with a laminate interior for 6 weeks and at times you can see water dipping out the bottom especially after feeding syrup. The floor just has a mesh and a solid board under that which I have had partially open. By that I mean 10mm along one side. However I do intend to make some kind of a litter floor.

Have found a system that can daisy chain temp sensors but only take one humidity sensor and unfortunately it's mounted on a board so there would be limitations on where it could go in the hive.
http://www.sheepwalkelectronics.co.uk/SWE3.shtml
10 temps, 1 hum with board kit would cost about £50

Bryan
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flywrights
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Joined: 11 May 2012
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Location: USA Georgia Savannah

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live in the hot humid summers of the southern USA. But the whole year is not humid. Instead of catch troughs, would setting a pan of tepid water under the screened floor (don't have deep floors yet) work in getting enough humidity to the brood during the crucial spring period before the humid summer kicks in? This could be changed in elevation as/if needed, from the ground to right up under the mesh.

I've been wondering about reasons other than the normal ones why I had one hive build up ok, but the other languish and is more or less a nuc that I'm going to experiment with nursing through the mild winter here. I've tried to cast it off as being a first year hive made from a 3lb package, but there never seemed to be the brood rearing. Neither hive is on its first queen, but the cluster size difference is amazing.

Rob
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JGW07
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Joined: 06 Apr 2010
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Location: USA, GA, Hephzibah

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flywrights,
Concerning your first question, I doubt you need to do anything to keep the humidity high in the hive during spring build-up except keep the bottom closed up. Looking at the relative humidity for the Savannah area, it averages in the low 50's in the morning and in the 80's in the afternoon. I suspect the bees can work with that. I'm up in Augusta and started keeping my bottom up all year around and the bees are doing great. I've never seen any Varroa. It's SHB that are the big pest.

You can check the relative humidity here http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/avgrh.html
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Ldy_Gardener70
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Color me interested and confused a bit. I've seen light condensation on the viewing window of my tbh and some light blueish mold on some unused top bars. Being a new beek I was advised that there wasn't enough ventilation. There are 3 screened openings plus an entrance all about the size of a fat wine cork.

Opinions?
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CharlieBnoobee
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject: Moisture, problem or asset? Reply with quote

I think a lot of confusion surrounding the issues of in-hive moisture and atmosphere quality stem from a lack of clarity on how ventilation, circulation, condensation/evaporation, and heat transfer all interact within the hive. Fortunately, these topics involve, for the main part, simple principles of physics that are universally applicable to both human and bee abodes, and what's been learned from studying the former (a great deal over the last 40 years) can be readily applied to the latter. I offer the following in the hopes that it clears the water more than muddying it.

Re ventilation and circulation:
Ventilation—the rate of air exchange between interior and exterior atmospheres—can only occur if there are at least two openings in the building or hive "envelope" (that which separates interior from exterior atmospheres); furthermore, both infiltration and exfiltration rates must equal. If they don't, the envelope will either explode or implode, respectively. These outcomes seem absurd, but can, and do happen inside large (EF3 plus) tornados. A less spectacular illustration of this principle is seen in the hot air balloon. In spite of the very large opening at the bottom, the balloon stays inflated until a second opening is provided by pulling the ripcord, thereby opening the top vent. Its area is only a tiny fraction of the area of the bottom opening but the rate of air entering the bottom is determined solely by the rate of air escaping out the top. Natural ventilation is primarily driven by a pressure differential within a hive/building envelope: warmer, and therefore higher pressure air toward the top, cooler, therefore lower pressure air toward the bottom.
Windwashing is a secondary effect (you might call it a type of bastard ventilation) occurring when wind velocity is strong enough to forcibly enter an opening and displace a portion of the interior air.
Circulation is simply the movement of air within the interior. It can be forced, for example by means of 100,000 bees' wings beating in unison, or an elegant Hunter Five-Blade Super Silent (Deluxe Victorian Model) Ceiling Fan with Candelabra Light Kit— the effect is the same; or it can take place via the currents arising from the rise and fall of warming and cooling air. In short, air is moved about within, not swapped without, as is the case with ventilation.

Condensation/Evaporation is a bit more complex, especially inside a bee hive. Here several dynamics are at work simultaneously, or at least within a period of a few hours (due to changes in solar gain.) When there is brood about, the bees want—and mites don't want—that part of the hive to be rain forest monsoon muggy. Obtaining that atmosphere requires heat and wet brood. If the heat isn't coming in from exterior conditions (like Houston's on an August afternoon) the bees will supply it by vibrating their wing muscles. The heat causes some brood moisture to evaporate thereby marginally lowering the temperature of the brood, not the air. Air temperature stays the same but its moisture content increases. Meanwhile the temperature of brood moisture and air comes back up as it (the brood) continues to absorb heat supplied by the heat source. It only takes a relatively small amount of water evaporating into the air to bring the RH (relative humidity) up over 90%, but because of water's astonishingly high Latent Heat of Vaporization (the amount of heat required to get a given mass of water to jump from liquid to the vapor phase) it takes much more heat to reach those high humidity levels. So as long as a little liquid water and a goodly amount of heat is brought in, the brood temperature and humidity will rise—quickly, if there's little or no ventilation over the brood—to the levels preferred by bees, their larvae and Houstonians, and deplored by mere mortals and mites.

It should be noted here that the latent heats of fusion and vaporization of a substance work in either direction, that is, when a substance is heated thus causing it to reach its melting (fusing) or boiling (vaporization) point temperatures, additional heat must be absorbed by the material just to get it all to change phase before the temperature will begin to rise again from additional heating. When cooling, these latent heats will be given off or released by the material into some adjacent heat sink before the material can condense or freeze, respectively. This is why citrus growers spray their orchards with water when freezing temps threaten the blossoms; as the sprayed water freezes, the blossoms absorb the water's released heat of fusion thereby keeping the blossoms themselves from freezing.

During a nectar flow, the fresh, wet nectar is needing most of its water to be evaporated. The question is how and whither the evaporated water. Unless the hive's location is the Sahara, ventilation alone is simply not going to get the job done. See Bernhard's (Zaunreiter's) explanation at the beginning of this thread.
In uncapped honey-storing comb, the dynamics are the reverse of what's taking place in the brood. Here, the heat comes from the nectar and comb. If the air surrounding, or circulating past, the nectar stores is fairly dry it will immediately absorb enough nectar water to raise its RH to the point that further up-take slows to zero. Also, nectar and comb temperature drops just a little, commensurate with the relatively little water that it took to saturate the surrounding air. Removing this air/water combination and replacing it with fresh, dry (or less moist) air via ventilation is a very slow way to remove nectar water. A much faster way is to circulate the air over to a hive surface that is cooler than the water vapor-laden air, thereby causing the water vapor to condense out of the air rather than having both air and water ventilate out of the hive. As the water condenses it gives up its considerable heat of vaporization into the condensing surface or material, and in doing so causes that material's temperature to rise, thereby slowing the rate of heat absorption. So condensation rate depends first on how quickly the water vapor is brought in contact with the condensing material, and that rate is in turn a function of the air circulation rate and the extent of the contacting surfaces. Once the water vapor is in contact with a condensing surface, the condensation rate will depend on the surface's heat absorption rate. This rate, in turn, depends on:
1. the material's temperature—the greater the difference between the water vapor and the cooler condensing surface, the faster the heat transfer from one to the other,
2., the material's heat conductivity—the faster the material conducts heat away from the surface and deeper into the body of the material, the slower the surface temperature rises due to the absorbed heat of vaporization.
And 3., the material's specific heat —the amount of heat required to raise the material's temperature a given amount. Counter-intuitively, specific heats of solids tend to decrease as densities increase. To evaluate a material as a potential heat reservoir, both its density and specific heat must be taken into account (i.e. multiplied together, keeping units consistent) For example, the spec. ht. of lead is .03 calories per gm. and deg. C.— about 1/6 that of concrete. On the other hand their densities are, in gm. per cc., 11.35, and 2.2, respectively. By taking the product of spec. ht. and density we get calories per cubic cm. and deg. C., which is a more useful measure. To raise the temp. of one cc. of these two materials one deg. C., lead has to absorb .34 calories, and concrete .4 calories. Liquid water is flat-out weird, as materials go: denser at 1.0 gm./cc (by definition) than its solid phase, very high heat of vaporization, and the highest specific heat of all common materials (1.0, also by definition). Of course its volumetric heat content in cal. / cc. and deg.C is also 1.0. What about wood? Oven dry oak"s volumetric heat content, like concrete, is about .4 and pine is .26, but the heat contents of the green, unseasoned versions of both is up around .7 – .75. Green wood is neither a particularly good insulator nor a good heat conductor; however, insulation value can always be increased by increasing the thickness of a material even as its capacity as a heat reservoir is also increased. So a big hulking old tree with a large cavity about 10-15 ft. up the trunk and only a single little entry slit in the six inch thick wall, too narrow for even a mouse, would seem to be an ideal situation for a colony, particularly in terms of the interior climate. However could the bees know? I bet they can't even spell Latent Heat of Vaporization Shocking.

Anyway, the closest we can come to giving them such an interior environment might be to:
1.—reduce or eliminate ventilation above and around the brood nest.
2.—enclose the hive with materials that have high total heat capacities and are so arranged that some surfaces are shaded (cooled) while others are being warmed; that is, as some parts of the combs are evaporating moisture, that same moisture is condensing on certain non-comb surfaces of the hive,
and 3.—configure these condensing surfaces in such a way that the condensate safely drains to where the bees can use it, if they're so inclined, rather than its raining down on them, their, brood, comb or frames. The potential problem (moisture) thus becomes an asset.

Designing such a hive makes a good homework assignment. It's certainly been keeping me out of trouble and off the streets at night!
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biobee
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very nice exposition of Ed Clarke's thesis, and perfectly sound.

Adding the moisture recycling effect of a deep litter floor and sloping sides (having a greater surface area per unit of vertical height, while retaining water droplets for longer than vertical sides) and a propolis-varnished surface for greater condensation efficiency, and you can see why the hTBH is looking quite good as a solution!
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Che Guebuddha
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2.—enclose the hive with materials that have high total heat capacities and are so arranged that some surfaces are shaded (cooled) while others are being warmed; that is, as some parts of the combs are evaporating moisture, that same moisture is condensing on certain non-comb surfaces of the hive,


I have obsreved in my horizontal TBH (which didnt have a follower board all summer) the part without comb was always full of condensation (dew on glass windows) while the part with comb and bees was always dry (front of the hive). I could see bees working these water drops. This would happen in the before noon hours and the drops would disapear after the outdoor temp increased due to sun.
I wonder if such condensation can take place in hives keeping the comb part tightly enclosed between follower boards (e.g. Phil's design). I would say probably so, as we can see on Dennis Murrells photos of water condensing above the cluster.
This makes me wonder whether reducing the hive space in winter is of less benefit to the colony??

If they can break the cluster at times to work the overhead condensation drops in a vertical box, then they can as well just walk to the other side of a horizontal hive to collect the dropplets, no? Which one is safer?
Allowing condensation to collect on the other side of the horizontal hive or reducing the space so the condensation forms above the cluster?

NOTE;
Dennis Murrels photos show clearly that water does NOT drop onto the bees (link in this thread I think). What he does say is that people claiming so are the ones finding dead bees which are soaked in wet mould, making them believe that water showered over the bees.
Ice does form over the bees but this does not mean they die from it. Please see his photos again. Is it possible that in hives with cross ventilation condensation can shower down on bees?

When I insulated my hives I placed extara walls of wood on the North side of hives but not so on the south side. This might do the warm-cool balance right. Hmmm. I might start insulating my North hive walls with shredded news pappers in a doubble wall making it 5-7 cm tick and make sure the south wall is 2,5-3cm tick. Entrance will be small and a Middle Height entrance which will be able to conserve some of the heavy acid fumes which fall to the bottom og the hive and some of the warm air above the cluster.

Lets see how this will work. I already made one hive with this entrance now its just to do the insulation this way.
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Che, melting ice above the cluster on warm winter days, followed by cold freezing temperatures do kill bees. There is no doubt. If it is just a little ice, it doesn't matter. But there can be a lot of ice. At least in far Canada. Ask John Moerschbacher about this. It is a fairly common observation in the far North.

Anyway, with some insulation and ventilation in winter (!) there won't be much of a problem. Apart from the ice.

The troublesome time is during the nectar flow. This is the time where a condenser within the hive is needed, that brings the moisture out of the hive, and must be of benefit to the bees during that time.

But how can this sort of thing practically be implicated?

A condenser at the top should work well, because of the high amplitude between inside and outside temperature. The top should be the warmest part of the hive. Need some shade, though.

I think a metal sheet works well. I have this condenser roof and there is a buildup of water sometimes, especially where I topped the roof with a slab of cement to hold it down. This is where the mass comes into play.

Wonder if there is another way to build a condenser. Especially during the flow outside temperatures are too high and thus preventing a decent condensating surface somewhere in or at the hive.

So what we talk about is some sort of cooling that is needed. Active or passive cooling.

Also the surface's structure can act like a seeder for droplets to form.

Would some sort of storage tank frame filled with water and constructed from metal be such a surface? Like a frame feeder just made from metal?

With a drip drain at the bottom that collects the water. (Also as a bee watering place.) But how is the excess water channeled outside the hive? In a horizontal hive it could be piped out with a small tube.
In a vertikal that tube can be hanging loosely right down into the water tank frame below until it reaches the bottom and piped out there.

Could be included in a follower/divider board. Hmmm....


Bernhard
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that is the idea in a sketch:

A frame gets metal or glass sides. Glass would be good because propolis can be scratched off easily, thus it would be a condenser and propolis collector the same time.


The frame gets sealed well from the inside and there is hole in the topbar to fill and refill the condenser as needed.


At the bottom you can make a kerf with a saw, so droplets of water can collect there and the bees take it.


The remaining question is what to do with excess water? How can you drain it out of the hive?

Bernhard
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Che Guebuddha
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1551
Location: Hårlev, Stevns Kommune, Denmark

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How can you drain it out of the hive?


Phil's deep floor
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure. Wet wood tends to produce lots of mould. Also in a Warré this won't help much, if the condensator frame is somewhere at the top.

Maybe there is an even simpler solution? I think there have been quite some condensers build for home or industrial use. They all are electrically powered. as far as I can see. Maybe with a small solar panel we just could do that, too. Wink

Anyway, a great opportunity for a design contest and brainstorm. I think the basic principle is cristall clear and only needs to put into practice. It sure must be easy to integrate and build.

Bernhard
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A simple solution comes from Russia:

http://letok.narod.ru/zima.htm

A layer of foil and an empty space above between hive and roof - just like the condenser roof I've built - but then the hive gets tilted to one side, so the water runs out of the hive after condensation in the roof part.

Bernhard
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AnthonyD
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Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Posts: 707
Location: County Kerry Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
A simple solution comes from Russia:

http://letok.narod.ru/zima.htm

A layer of foil and an empty space above between hive and roof - just like the condenser roof I've built - but then the hive gets tilted to one side, so the water runs out of the hive after condensation in the roof part.

Bernhard


You sir, are a man of many resources.

How on earth did you even find that? Google translate made it readable enough, quite interesting, although I'm not sure I totally understand the principle behind it - but obviously very do-able.
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biobee
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1059
Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnthonyD wrote:

How on earth did you even find that?


Never underestimate the powers of the zaunreiter!
He will find things that have not even been written yet: time travel is but a trifle to him!

Wink
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AnthonyD
Silver Bee


Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Posts: 707
Location: County Kerry Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor Who of Beekeeping.....

Or the Chuck Norris...lol

When ghosts go camping they tell Chuck Norr-- *cough* Zaunreiter stories!
Very Happy
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embarassed

Uh, it is not me. I am just in contact with many beekeepers all over the World and languages. Sharing thoughts, pictures and weblinks back and forth. Sort of trophallaxis or sharing nectars within a big hive. Wink

So it's the swarm not the individual.

Bernhard
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This video shows great pictures of bees with a thermografic camera.

http://vimeo.com/34637634
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