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Condensation and varroa! Missing link to survivalists
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Che Guebuddha
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1549
Location: Hårlev, Stevns Kommune, Denmark

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
I find top entrances anti-natural and against all of my experience with natural beekeeping. Just to say it crystall-clear.

It is completely turning over the hive's climate and the bees ability to control it. I am not saying a top vent (not entrance!) is helpful at times, but most of the time it is destroying the natural hive nest scent and the way of air flow in the hive.


If you look into Seeley's book Honeybee Democracy on the page 49 you will see a picture of a hollow tree with a colony in it. This is a natural swarm, which naturally chose a trunk with a top entrance Wink These bees didnt read your book of natural rules Im assuming Laughing They must be rebels going against the rules Laughing

By the way top entrance is not "ventilation" bees can still build front comb in a way to modify the amount of humidity or heat leaving the hive but Im yet to observe that in my hives.

If pheromones/hive scents are heavier than air than they will sink to the bottom as organic acids from honey production do. With a bottom entrance these leak out easily but not so with a top one.

Im not saying one is better than the other one! Im only sharing my experience with top entrances in horizontal top bar hives. Im sure condenser hive is a GREAT idea for hot countries which dont get much rain but in my locality that is never an issue.

Any who Im off to Sweden to move my bees to our farm in Denmark Smile) see you all soon! Ta ta!
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gonna be a nice warm day, with 23 degree Celsius. Bees started to collect water in the early morning hours. For me this another example for the Bien being a thinking and planning creature. They do not simply react, but actually prepare for the hot day.
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sam_uk
House Bee


Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 12
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: condensation plate? Reply with quote

This is an interesting thread.

I'm thinking that a small condensation plate in the north side of each box might be useful?

A small 3cmx 3cm L shaped piece of metal on the inside, bolted through to a metal plate on the north face of the hive.

The cold plate on the outside would cool the bolts and the inner plate through conduction?

If this was combined with really good insulation generally?
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CharlieBnoobee
Guard Bee


Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 97
Location: Virginia,USA; S. Appalachians;USDA zn. 6a

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Che— To buttress your argument in favor of top entrances/vents on hives, you mention a photo (fig. 3.3) on pg. 49 in Seeley's book Honeybee Democracy This photo is the 'exception that proves the rule' which is, as Seeley states on the very next page (50) at the bottom:

"Most nest entrances consisted of a single knothole or crack with a total area of just 10 to 30 square centimeters. And typically they were located near the floor of the tall tree cavity, on the south side of the tree, close to ground level." (my emphasis added)

The part about close to ground level he explains on the next page as being an error due entirely to observational bias in sampling.

Again I ask: Why keep beating this thoroughly dead horse? It's not going to get up and trot!

You remind me of the proprietor in the Monty Python Pet Shop skit with the irate customer's recently purchased—and dead— parrot (IT'S DEFINITELY NOT IN THE PINK!!) Google it—you'll love it.

Gotta admire your tenacity nevertheless.
Charlie
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Influence of Temperature on Rate of Development and Color Patterns of Queen Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae)
SPIVAK, MARLA; ZELTZER, ABBIE; DEGRANDI-HOFFMAN, GLORIA; MARTIN, JOSEPH H.
Environmental Entomology, Volume 21, Number 2, April 1992, pp. 364-370(7)
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/esa/envent/1992/00000021/00000002/art00021

"Queens are significantly darker when held at constant temperatures of 30.5°C during the last instar and pupal stages compared to 35.5°C."
"This study and that of Spivak et al (1992) demonstrated that the expression of genes for color is modulated by constant temperatures."
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/file/index/docid/891063/filename/hal-00891063.pdf
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The mean hourly Pw, in the nectar store is always below 20 mb whereas in the brood nest it is above 20 mb. VPD in the nectar store shows greater fluctuation with a peak between 12:00 pm and 16:00 pm. The fluctuations in the nectar store are due to changes in temperature and are not driven by vapour pressure, as this remains fairly constant throughout the day. It would be most efficient for workers to evaporate nectar during the VPD peak, however VPD in the nectar store remains higher than ambient at all times during the day. This explains why honeybees remain inside the hive to evaporate nectar rather than doing this outside the colony.

http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/submitted/etd-10022009-135223/unrestricted/dissertation.pdf

We need to look deeper at vapor pressure inside the hive. Seems, there is a different vapor pressure in the broodnest and honey comb. Also another thought: does the mite react to pressure? Would be a nice thing to knock down mites by changing the pressure inside the hive.
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trying different winters etups at the moment. To see, how my super-insulated arctic hives compare to other setups. I am testing three types of insulation: 1. no insulation 2. wrapping with black fleece and 3. super-insulation.

I sewed a black fleece that is used to cover compost into a long tube, upper and lower end open. Pulled that tube over the hive, stapled and strapped it at the bottom end. Stuffed it with straw and closed it up at the top. The thickness of the straw wall is about 15-20 cm.

The mesh, that is used to prevent mice from entering the hive, also fixates the fleece, so it doesn't drop before the entrance, so the bees don't suffocate.

It looks like that.




The fleece gets stapled to the entrance.






Looks a bit crazy, but are very warm and cosy. In the sun, the whole thing warms up nicely. After a rain, the straw is damp, but dries up quickly.


That is the other type, just wrapped, no insulation.


And this another setup where I folded the wrap under the roof. This is the quickest setup, just fold, staple, done. There is no insulation with this setup. Just some solar gain and blockage of wind.


Those are the controls, which do not get any insulation or wrapping.


Just a mesh against mice.


To block the wind from blowing right into the entrance I use strawbales. Wind really kills bees, especially in case the wind is very continuous. (wind chill factor)


This year I took the exact weight of all hives, so can compare how much winter food they use in each setup.

Bernhard
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NewForester
Nurse Bee


Joined: 23 Jul 2010
Posts: 26
Location: New Forest, Hampshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SueBee wrote:
I've spent two days reading this very informative thread. Now, an embarrassing question or two: I am a newbeek---lost my first cutout this past fall. Am spending the winter reading and studying as I prepare for a swarm this coming season (I hope..).

I have a Warre' hive. I am way too stupid to follow all the math on this thread, but want dearly to provide a good home for my bees. What would be the simplest solution to the condensation issues for my hive? I'm no carpenter, but I believe I could construct Berhard's condensation "roof"/bee feeder. Should I stick a stone slab in this sub-roof thingy?

My hive box is already heavily propolized from last year's bees. I can make a small entrance and keep a solid floor. I can tilt the hive to one side.

Can I construct some kind of a simple deep floor for a Warre' hive?

Should I just stick to keeping calendars of bees, instead of real bees?? I don't want to do them more harm than good.

Thanks for all your wisdom!
Susan



If one wants condensation, could one not simply place a layer of glass in place of a Crown Board or Quilt for the summer? And take it off for the winter where there would be too much condensation?
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am currently looking into this article and find it highly interesting:

http://sageke.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2004/26/pe28

Epigenetic Regulation of Aging in Honeybee Workers
Stig W. Omholt, and Gro V. Amdam
Sci. Aging Knowl. Environ., 30 June 2004 Vol. 2004, Issue 26, p. pe28

I reckon there are some key elements in this article to understand the Bien as a whole - and problems made by beekeepers, pesticides and environment. I think the article is a key to a deeper understanding of the Bien and many observations I made completely fit into the picture of the hypothesis of this article. There is not much really new in it besides it summarizes things and adds the "double repressor hypothesis".

Don't know if it is just me, but I am thrilled. This is the description on how the inner Bien gets in harmony with it's outer environment.

Bernhard
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bijenhouders.nl/files/Bijengezondheid/Steen/vitality%20Bled%20okt12%20BGC%20Ento%20nutritionsept%2012%20BUokt%20sept%2012.pdf
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultrastructure and bacterial infection of wounds in honey bee (Apis mellifera) pupae punctured by Varroa mites
Ghazwan Kanbar, Wolf Engels
Parasitol Res (2003) 90: 349–354
http://www.biobees.com/library/general_beekeeping/pests_varroa/varroa_research_paper_1.pdf

There is a follow up study:
Communal use of integumental wounds in honey bee (Apis mellifera) pupae multiply infested by the ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor
Ghazwan Kanbar, Wolf Engels
Genet. Mol. Res. 4 (3): 465-472 (2005)
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2005/vol3-4/pdf/gmr0160.pdf
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great book and bible to all who want to know about natural bee nests:

Honeybee Nests: Composition, Structure, Function
: H.R. Hepburn, C.W.W. Pirk and O. Duangphakdee
ISBN-13: 978-3642543272
Springer-Verlag; Auflage: 2014 (10. März 2014)
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
Ich habe mich stets gefragt, weshalb die wilden Bienenvölker in den Baumhöhlen in Frankreich, USA, ... die Varroa jahrelang überleben. Und warum sie, sobald sie in Bienenbeuten transferiert werden, dort an der Varroa eingehen.


Hier eine Arbeit dazu:

Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor
Derek Mitchell 
International Journal of Biometeorology
pp 1-10
First online: 03 September 2015
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00484-015-1057-z
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box
House Bee


Joined: 30 Dec 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Aalborg, Denmark

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This series is so very interresting so I got to hear how your trails with the hives earlyer
Vent , or maybe you have in another tread ?
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am adding more insulation now. At the top the thickest insulation. Starting to think, that more insulation all around the Bien would be good, but you need to regulate the ventilation then.
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ingo50
Scout Bee


Joined: 30 May 2014
Posts: 311
Location: Newport, Gwent, Wales, UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the link to this interesting research article. It just reiterates how little we know of normal bee behaviour in the wild, and the fact that bees survive despite what beekeepers do to them.
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madasafish
Silver Bee


Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 880
Location: Stoke On Trent

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this definitive study.

https://oxnatbees.wordpress.com/2015/01/25/warm-hives/
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ingo50
Scout Bee


Joined: 30 May 2014
Posts: 311
Location: Newport, Gwent, Wales, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting Madasafish. I know Paul the author of the article. He has Warre hives. I think better insulation and less heat loss is definitely the way forward.
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Odisej
Nurse Bee


Joined: 10 Mar 2011
Posts: 40
Location: Slovenia, EU

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My good beekeeper friend from Srbia (Europe) more than 20 years didn't use any treatment agains varoa.
His hives (mostli LR but also his special nukleus) have round entrance at the top of the hive if there are two boxes (bodies).

If there are three ore more hive bodies there are two entrances:

Here are two of his very old hives (and he did not change the comb in brood area last twenty years that's why it is very dark.






You can see the white small tube - there is a temperature sensor inside.

He found out that colonies in hives with round entrance (AND without classical horizontal entrance at the bottom) can maintain averagely 1°C higher temperature in the nest which is 'problem' for varoa.




The worst combination for microclime in the hive is combination of horizontal entrance at the buttom and (or mesh floor) onother one at the top . So: NO ventilation, ONLY good microclime in the hive.

He also performed serial measurment of temperature and CO2 in the hives and found out the round entrance is the best way to enable (help) bees keeping optimal microclime in the hive.

And it's not true that warm air is (always) at the top of the hive Smile .

See this photo:



You can check at your own hives.
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