Please support Friends of the Bees to keep this forum free to use.

Natural Beekeeping International Forum
low-cost, low-impact, balanced beekeeping for everyone

 Forum FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileYour Profile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Please Read The Rules before posting.



(country selected automatically - UK/USA/CA/AU)
Perone grid. 8mm or 9mm gap important ?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    beekeeping forum -> Perone Hive
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mal
Nurse Bee


Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 44
Location: Rutland, Leicestershire, UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Perone grid. 8mm or 9mm gap important ? Reply with quote

I have 25mm bars instead of suggested 24mm

My options are:
25mm bar, 8mm space and 33mm centres
25mm bar, 9mm space and 34mm centres
or
plane them and have 24mm bar, 9mm space and 33mm centres

Any opinions ? And the whys and wherefores would be welcome.

Thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
catchercradle
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 1495
Location: Cambridge, UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I have read of others' experience, the bees don't mind and may not align the comb with the grid anyway.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andy pearce
Silver Bee


Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 663
Location: UK, East Sussex, Brighton

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could only get 25mm strip wood. I spent ages seeing if I could reasonably take 1mm off with a sander as I still have no workshop and such tools as a thickness planer. My advice based on my experience of trying this is to forget it and go for the 1mm narrower gap, it will save much ranting and hurling things round the garden, which is good. The nest grid of my MK2 has 24mm ish top bars but the rest are 25mm.
In my mk1 the bees started to follow the top bars in the first couple and then started to curve their combs across the bars (the grids were aligned north-south and the hive the swarm came from, the frames were north-south too...I think we need a little more research on this particular aspect of bee behaviour) This was at 32mm centres. I wonder if they would do this with strong dowels, maybe 15mm diameter, at 33mm centres... so they had a bigger gap, but the comb spacing would be the same and they would work out that for themselves.
A
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mal
Nurse Bee


Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 44
Location: Rutland, Leicestershire, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for your advice.
I was hoping that I could go for the 8mm gap easy option. I will

Regards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
catchercradle
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 1495
Location: Cambridge, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the bees started to follow the top bars in the first couple and then started to curve their combs across the bars


I suspect some degree of comb curvature is normal whenever there is enough space to allow it and we haven't stopped it either by making the space small enough that it is easier to attach comb at both ends etc. The curvature is probably a means of regulating temperature/humidity etc when we have put them into a cavity rather larger than the 40 litres Prof Seeley found was there preferred option.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andy pearce
Silver Bee


Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 663
Location: UK, East Sussex, Brighton

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been mulling over using a randomly perforated board rather than top bars in a grid to give the bees a bit more freedom of build. I saw the idea on here, someone from Portugal (I think) with Warre hives using boards with holes in rather than bars. That got me thinking about what size hole and at what spacing and concluded that the hive that gave total freedom of comb building was the Japanese Hive if you left off the top bars. I think this is an experiment for the future as I want to try the MK2 as designed first.
A
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mal
Nurse Bee


Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 44
Location: Rutland, Leicestershire, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that leads me on to another question - as the perone design is such that combs do not get looked at individually there does seem to be a total freedom of bee choice regards comb shape .
Am i correct in assuming then the bees just need access to the food store above and therefore the holes/gaps needs to be a consideration allowing the cluster to move as a whole ?
And if you were going to harvest the stores in the beekepers section then you would just need to consider access during nectar flow to build stores - in the winter a solid section of top bar would help retain heat above the cluster as in an htbh ?
Also, is a possible benefit of curved comb being greater insulation around a cluster ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andy pearce
Silver Bee


Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 663
Location: UK, East Sussex, Brighton

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole 32mm and 33mm top bar centres comes from observations of natural comb. It is purported that this is the spacings bees naturally make. However, I have not seen enough evidence to support this to make any critical judgement, but know this is of interest to small cell bee keepers and those bee keepers who keep regressed bees, small bees allowed to to make natural comb so they are back to what they were before they were made big, more or less.

I think big bees have problems with those comb spacings as their comb is bigger and according to Michael Bush it takes a while for big bees to wild sized again. There are people working on this, I have mentioned Michael bush and there is Dee Lusby and the Organic beekeepers. Oscar Perone talks about this too but the Spanish is hard to translate...too technical.

One of the assumptions about small bees is that they are better able to survive varroa. So a question may be if you put small or wild size bees into a Perone will they do better than a swarm of big bees off brood foundation? That is going to take a while to find out.
A
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
biobee
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1055
Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would invite everyone - especially those who support the 32mm spacing theory - to measure the thickness of combs where the bees build drone cells (remembering to include the domed caps), add one bee space to give them room to emerge, and see if you get 32mm or less.

I bet you a fiver you get a larger number.

I have measured drone combs in my free-comb hives and it averages out at 29-30mm, with very little variation.

This tells me that 32mm is not wide enough spacing - I am now using 38mm.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
catchercradle
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 1495
Location: Cambridge, UK

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But not in their Perone Hives as the brood area is a, "sacred space" that the bee keeper never enters!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    beekeeping forum -> Perone Hive All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

SPECIAL OFFER FOR UK FORUM MEMBERS - Buy your protective clothing here and get a special 15% discount! (use the code BAREFOOTBEEKEEPER at checkout and be sure to 'update basket')



Are the big energy companies bleeding you dry?


Is way too much of your hard-earned family income going up in smoke?

Are you worried about what could happen if the ageing grid system fails?

You need to watch this short video NOW to find out how YOU can cut your energy bills TO THE BONE within 30 days!

WATCH THE VIDEO NOW



(country selected automatically - UK/USA/CA/AU)

Conserving wild bees

Research suggests that bumble bee boxes have a very low success rate in actually attracting bees into them. We find that if you create an environment where first of all you can attract mice inside, such as a pile of stones, a drystone wall, paving slabs with intentionally made cavities underneath, this will increase the success rate.

Most bumble bee species need a dry space about the size a football, with a narrow entrance tunnel approximately 2cm in diameter and 20 cm long. Most species nest underground along the base of a linear feature such as a hedge or wall. Sites need to be sheltered and out of direct sunlight.

There is a spectacular display of wild bee hotels here

More about bumblebees and solitary bees here

Information about the Tree Bumblebee (Bombus hypnorum)

Barefoot Beekeeper Podcast



Now available from Lulu.com


Now available from Lulu.com


Now available from Lulu.com


4th Edition paperback now available from Lulu.com

See beekeeping books for details and links to ebook versions.
site map
php. BB © 2001, 2005 php. BB Group

View topic - Perone grid. 8mm or 9mm gap important ? - Natural Beekeeping Network Forum