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Solarbeez blogpost

 
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AugustC
Silver Bee


Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 613
Location: Malton, North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:22 pm    Post subject: Solarbeez blogpost Reply with quote

http://solarbeez.com/2014/05/08/vernons-second-perone-hive/

this is nice little update on an overwintered perone hive
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Solarpat
Foraging Bee


Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 220
Location: Bandon, OREGON, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:43 pm    Post subject: Update on second Perone hive Reply with quote

To be honest, I'd rather not post this, but to be honest, I should. Vernon wrote to tell me his 2nd Perone hive had a failure. As can be expected he is really unhappy about it, but he sent me some photos and videos in the hopes that someone could shed some light on what could have happened.

http://solarbeez.com/2015/01/09/perone-failure/

On an optimistic note, the first Perone hive (right beside it) is still doing well, treatment-free. The bees are bringing in lots of yellow pollen and well, since it was my swarm that started it off, I'm really happy about that.
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Viggen
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Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 433
Location: USA, Arizona

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best to have all the information possible.
As to the why of something - will always be a guess. Over several years and many hives(in particular climates) only then can we guess better..
Interesting that the one surviving is a local swarm - and that region is right on the Pacific coast.
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Tavascarow
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Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 962
Location: UK Cornwall Snozzle

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice blog.
Have we got a link on this site where blogging beeks can post links to their sites?
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andy pearce
Silver Bee


Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 663
Location: UK, East Sussex, Brighton

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you imagine a slightly different dimension my MK1 looked exactly like that when I opened it in September 2013. No bees at all. I still have the video I made at the time but decided not to post it as there were some very negative issues going on at the time.

As far as information is concerned, these hives are so few and far between we have to have all the information possible.

Unlike Vernon's mine had no brood at all and was on its own. In my case I concluded, varroa but as yet no one has been able to offer up a detailed process of how a hive goes from many bees to no bees, not even dead bees. As mine was empty at the end of summer there were no egg laying workers or dwarf drones lurking about if the queen had failed.

Thanks for posting, this is a learning process.
A
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mrcadman
Guard Bee


Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 56
Location: Mael Carhaix, France

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting well documented history. My Perone hive still active here in Northern France. If they survive, will be opening in August to inspect (honey crop??!!) - have not opened since early 2014 when hive populated. Has always had good activity at the entrance.
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Adam Rose
Silver Bee


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Posts: 586
Location: Manchester, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Update on second Perone hive Reply with quote

Solarpat wrote:
To be honest, I'd rather not post this, but to be honest, I should. Vernon wrote to tell me his 2nd Perone hive had a failure. As can be expected he is really unhappy about it, but he sent me some photos and videos in the hopes that someone could shed some light on what could have happened.

http://solarbeez.com/2015/01/09/perone-failure/

On an optimistic note, the first Perone hive (right beside it) is still doing well, treatment-free. The bees are bringing in lots of yellow pollen and well, since it was my swarm that started it off, I'm really happy about that.


What's to like about Perone's ? They are leave alone, treatment free, but can easily be harvested. There is no lifting of heavy boxes as you might have in traditional Warre management. So the philosophy behind them is very attractive.

What's not to like about Perone's ? Well, they just seem too big. Seeley's research says that bees themselves prefer cavities of about 40 litres. Perone's are many times larger than that, around 200 litres, in other words, 5 times bigger than an average swarm would choose for itself.

It seems to me that a vigourous, prime swarm can partially compensate for the huge size by expanding very quickly, since a prime swarm has large numbers of the right kind of bees with stomachs full of honey. But a package is not going to have the same vigour and is therefore going to have a lot of difficulty expanding quickly enough to be able to create a space is which it can keep control of the temperatiure and humidity. Precisely what combination of varroa, robbing, mold, etc caused the colony to die or abscond isn't really the point.

I can't remember where, but there was also a case of early absconding described on this forum, where a recently collected ( perhaps prime ) swarm decided that a Perone was not a good place to set up home. Now of course this can happen to anyone in any hive, but it is some additional evidence in favour of the "Perone's are too big" hypothesis.

I think the basic idea is a good one : build a stack of boxes, leave the bees alone, and harvest from the top, with some kind of minimal support structure to prevent the comb rom collapsing when you do so. But the internal volume is too large, so just reduce it by shrinking the size of the boxes you are stacking. That way leads you to something like a more or less modified Warre or a Japanese hive.

Adam.

BTW, is it possible to provide an estimate of the volume of the comb
in the hive that died/absconded ? It looks more or less triangular, so half height times width times depth should do it. I'm prepared to bet that the answer is somewhere just under 40 litres.
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mrcadman
Guard Bee


Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 56
Location: Mael Carhaix, France

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Perone's are too big" hypothesis is just that - a hypothesis.

Having read the research and applied information out there re Perones, we know they do work - at least in South America.

Some of us are taking a more pro-active approach to see if it could work here in the Northern Hemisphere.

It's success does depend on the large cavity being fully occupied to raise the temperature and humidity. Reports state that a Perone can have 2-3 colonies in occupation in which case the 40 litre 'rule' does not apply to this type of hive.

In the future we will, hopefully, have a definitive answer. This can only be achieved by practical experimentation. This is the way the world and beekeeping move forward. Smile
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Solarpat
Foraging Bee


Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 220
Location: Bandon, OREGON, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Update on second Perone hive Reply with quote

Adam Rose wrote:

BTW, is it possible to provide an estimate of the volume of the comb
in the hive that died/absconded ? It looks more or less triangular, so half height times width times depth should do it. I'm prepared to bet that the answer is somewhere just under 40 litres.


I will ask Vernon to get a measurement. Maybe he can respond directly as I'm just a middleman.
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andy pearce
Silver Bee


Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 663
Location: UK, East Sussex, Brighton

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to echo Mrcadman's point....Oscar Perone made certain claims....he suggested we should try for ourselves and see if his claims were transferable to our areas and some of us decided to have a look and see if what he was claiming was right. It may or may not be right. If more Perone hives fail than thrive as compared to other systems then we will have an answer. Only time will tell, all the observations will add to a pool of bee knowledge and we will have had fun seeing.
A
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Vernon
New Bee


Joined: 14 May 2014
Posts: 7
Location: Klamath, California, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The approximate volume of comb in my failed Perone hive is 32 liters.

Last year my successful Perone hive probably went into Winter with even less volume, yet by mid-Spring it housed more bees than I've ever seen in a Lanstroth hive.
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