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Rose Hive method
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 307
Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:56 am    Post subject: Rose Hive method Reply with quote

so, I've got 2 top bar hives, but in all honesty, I've not had much success getting bees through winter with them, so currently have a couple of nationals (don't all groan at me)
now whilst watching you tube, I came across a guy called tim rowe and rose hives, watching his video's, it seemed more aimed at the bees, rather than the honey, which ticked all my boxes.
so I had some commercial hives that I bought last year to put over our woods, I decieded to use supers as rose boxes, all frames have a simple starter strip of wax and there is no queen excluder used, she is free to go where she wants

picked up a swarm yesterday, so grabbed my newly altered hive and drove over to our woods

http://youtu.be/JhXOKrEZURA
the film is a bit longer than you tube allow, so it starts 6 minutes into the film, just click on the start to watch fully
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J Smith
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Joined: 13 Jan 2014
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Location: New Zealand, South Island, Southland, Riversdale.

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing wrong with Nationals (or Langs) as a hive to keep bees in. It is more to do with the way you manage them.
Sounds like you now have that sorted. Good on you for ditching the excluder and foundation sheets. Let the bees decide.

Best of luck with your new colony.
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andy pearce
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Location: UK, East Sussex, Brighton

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have nationals too, I got them a huge expense before I came to this site and am not going to get rid of them yet!
Seems to me that the Rose hive is pretty similar to the framed Warre or the medium lang system proposed by Michael Bush and others....use the same size box and nadir or super depending on circumstances. It matters not where the brood is and in the last two at least the comb is natural from starter strips. So the difference being between the three types listed above is the dimensions of the box.
Am I right?
A
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J Smith
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Joined: 13 Jan 2014
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Location: New Zealand, South Island, Southland, Riversdale.

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy, you are dead right.
Hollow log, hTBH, Kenyan, Tanzanian, homemade, store bought, Langstroth, National, Warre, Russian, Perone........ and any others are just houses for bees with differing dimensions and have differing ways of playing with them.
The main difference most aim for here is the way they are worked and managed- natural keeping- versus commercial honey production.
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
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Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy pearce wrote:
So the difference being between the three types listed above is the dimensions of the box.
Am I right?
A


yes, and with the way the hive is managed,
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biobee
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Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Rowe's system works for him and (I assume) others because it is designed to work with a particular size and type of hardware. Same with the Warre - but don't expect to be able to just stack up a pile of National supers and expect them to work like a Warre, or you will be setting yourself up for failure.

Decide what style of beekeeping you want to do and get the right equipment for that system: mix-and-match is not generally successful, in my experience.
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
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Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biobee wrote:
Tim Rowe's system works for him and (I assume) others because it is designed to work with a particular size and type of hardware. Same with the Warre - but don't expect to be able to just stack up a pile of National supers and expect them to work like a Warre, or you will be setting yourself up for failure.

Decide what style of beekeeping you want to do and get the right equipment for that system: mix-and-match is not generally successful, in my experience.


tim say's himself on one of his video's, that the rose method will work using all national supers, so commercials are not much different, Im sure the bees dont know the names of all the different hives we have, but time will tell, my whole point in this was to try the rose method, before shelling out ££££'s on new sizes of boxes/frames etc

if It's a success with this one hive, then next year I'll be selling up all nationals/commercials and starting afresh with rose
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WileyHunter
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Joined: 13 Jan 2014
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Location: Batesville, IN USA

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess my knowledge of this topic will have to stay limited for a spell... As I often do when I want to learn about a new subject, I Googled it... Found out there's a book by Tim Rowe, who seems to claim to be the creator of this method. So now I go to Amazon, armed with this limited info and do a search, with his book coming up "The Rose Hive Method", at a price of $108 for paperback! I can't imagine this is right, yet three sellers were in the same ballpark. Oh well...
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J Smith
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Location: New Zealand, South Island, Southland, Riversdale.

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try looking direct instead of Amazon.
http://www.rosebeehives.com/the-rose-hive-book.html Wink
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Manuel Robert
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Joined: 04 Dec 2011
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Location: Bischofsheim, Rhön , Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this book some time ago. One of the main points is to add boxes into the brood nest during late spring , thus expanding it. After late june, depending on local conditions ect. he adds boxes just above it , but under the other supers.
Personally I felt it involved a lot of opening and manipulation, and it seems you have to really be at ease handling boxes ect.
The book is nice to read, and it wasn´t expensive when I bought it.
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rmcpb
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Joined: 17 Jul 2011
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Location: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing about the method but they are really quiet bees!

Cheers
Rob.
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
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Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Smith wrote:
Try looking direct instead of Amazon.
http://www.rosebeehives.com/the-rose-hive-book.html Wink


thanks for that link, just bought it £12.61
you can learn lots just from watching you tube, but having a read on a sunny day, whilst watching my bees is more relaxing
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biobee
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest you get in some weight-lifting practice - you will need all the muscles you can muster - especially using Commercial supers!
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 307
Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biobee wrote:
I suggest you get in some weight-lifting practice - you will need all the muscles you can muster - especially using Commercial supers!


again, not really, Im running this method not only because I see that the bees are given the space to do what they want, but it also gives me the oppotunity to use frames, and wax starter strips, and cut comb is the way I want to go if I steal any honey, and if I do that, I can simply remove the roof, take out one frame, shake off the bees, walk away, use the cutter to remove 6 wedges and put the frame straight back in.

yes I can see you point, as there will be times when boxes need lifting to insert others underneath, again, these are being kept in our woods, we have a little group of willing friends that help us in it's management, that are all eager to learn more about bees and help out, so by having a few extra bee suits on site, any manuel heavy stuff can be left to the young un's Laughing
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WileyHunter
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Joined: 13 Jan 2014
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Location: Batesville, IN USA

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biobee wrote:
I suggest you get in some weight-lifting practice - you will need all the muscles you can muster - especially using Commercial supers!


Good enough! I'm not lazy, by any means, but I prefer to find the least strain on my aging body.
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andy pearce
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Joined: 30 Aug 2009
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Location: UK, East Sussex, Brighton

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So unless you have your own workshop and are good at wood work you are going to buy those Rose hive boxes which are a shorter national brood (or taller super). That is going to be expensive.... If you are going for a vertical system from scratch why not the Warre....all the plans are here and do not need the same skill level to produce the boxes. There are many Warre keepers.here as well...frameless or framed with starter strips....I think the box unit size is important too as I am spending more on my back at the moment than getting from my bee keeping!
A
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Barbara
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so, I've got 2 top bar hives, but in all honesty, I've not had much success getting bees through winter with them


I am curious as to why you didn't have success overwintering your TBHs and why you think the Rose Hive method will change that.

If I remember rightly you experimented a bit with your TBHs. I believe you went tanzanian and used frames didn't you, effectively creating a long hive? Did you also try supering? Knowing what went wrong could be helpful to some of us who are considering similar modifications.
Any idea what caused the colony failures?

I appreciate that you have the national hives and want to utilise them, but it seems a bit strange to abandon your top bar hives, when you could also make use of them, especially if they have drawn comb in them. That would give a new colony a tremendous head start and make them much more likely to survive next winter, assuming they aren't infected with foul brood or nosema.
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 307
Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy pearce wrote:
So unless you have your own workshop and are good at wood work you are going to buy those Rose hive boxes which are a shorter national brood (or taller super). That is going to be expensive.... If you are going for a vertical system from scratch why not the Warre....all the plans are here and do not need the same skill level to produce the boxes. There are many Warre keepers.here as well...frameless or framed with starter strips....I think the box unit size is important too as I am spending more on my back at the moment than getting from my bee keeping!
A


I can see your point, but, if I were to carry on with my national or commercial hives, brood boxes and supers and frames are considerable more expensive than rose boxes including frames, as the rose boxes are the same base size as a national/commercial, then all the floors and roofs that I already have can be used, therefore Im sure the timber and bits would come in at around the same sort of money, plus I have the woodland to manage, as well as the bees, plus a few other hobbies and work of course, so its far easier to buy, rather than say I'm getting lazy
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
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Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barbara wrote:
Quote:
so, I've got 2 top bar hives, but in all honesty, I've not had much success getting bees through winter with them


I am curious as to why you didn't have success overwintering your TBHs and why you think the Rose Hive method will change that.

If I remember rightly you experimented a bit with your TBHs. I believe you went tanzanian and used frames didn't you, effectively creating a long hive? Did you also try supering? Knowing what went wrong could be helpful to some of us who are considering similar modifications.
Any idea what caused the colony failures?

I appreciate that you have the national hives and want to utilise them, but it seems a bit strange to abandon your top bar hives, when you could also make use of them, especially if they have drawn comb in them. That would give a new colony a tremendous head start and make them much more likely to survive next winter, assuming they aren't infected with foul brood or nosema.


the first swarm ended up queenless, and for some reason unknown did not produce a new queen, I tried getting a queen from fellow beeks but everyone seemed in the same boat, the next swarms were only small cast swarms, and although fed throughout the winter, they succumed in the new year.

I think the tbh were a good learning curve for me, they got me more into the bees, and less about honey, although I still class myself as a beginner, and occasionally call upon my mentor for advice or hands on help, Im looking forward to getting more bees into our woods, and although it'll be with a rose rather than a tbh, it will certainly be with bee production at the forefront, rather than honey
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Swing Swang
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim makes some very good points in his book which is essentially about the method and not just about his hives-eg single size box that is small enough to be lifted when full of honey, no queen excluder etc. Therefore much of what he says is applicable to Warre hives, but this does mean departing from Warre's published method of management.

For the last season I've been using the Rose method on one of my Warre's that are fitted with 'half frames' - specifically splitting the brood chamber up until midsummer and supering after midsummer. I'm using foundation 'ladders' to keep things nice and orderly (i.e. that's nice and orderly for me!).

This seems to have helped with swarm control as the bees aren't hitting a false bottom, has resulted in a strong colony, and has circumvented the problem of the bees not building down into the lower box.

It's very, very early days for me in using this method, but I am favourably disposed towards it at the moment and will be continuing with my observations. It will be interesting to see if splitting the brood chamber two or three times before midsummer stresses the bees too much though. I don't thing there is much that I can say that is truly scientific, but it seems to be working for me.

SS
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that sounds great SS, keep us posted
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rmcpb
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure this is really a "new"method but it surely puts into order a lot that is instinctively done by many keepers. Not sure about the eight box high hives though.....

Cheers
Rob.
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't sound great to me. It seems to me that the bee biology is not respected in any way and there is no honey produced. A couple of years ago I saw a pdf with a presentation of the method. I wasn't impressed.

So please expand on the "method" and describe month by month manipulations.
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J Smith
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My personal take, upon watching the video on his website, is that the method is used to increase bee numbers more than any honey production.
Indeed "increasing bee numbers" is mentioned a couple of times.
I have never tried the method, so cannot really say if it works.
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Dexter's shed
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:



So please expand on the "method" and describe month by month manipulations.



for that, I'd suggest you buy tim's book, or do some more research yourself, it's obvious by your answer that you don't like the idea, which is fine, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but why do you feel the need to shoot it down with such intense questions about monthly inspections Rolling Eyes

I thought the whole point of this forum, was for those more interested in the "bee" rather than honey production, going by tim's video's, increasing the number of bees in his hives, and letting them do what they want to do, is what is happening, with honey production coming later in the year

if in a years time I report back that it was a major disaster then you can sit back with a smug grin and think, see I was right,
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rmcpb wrote:
Not sure this is really a "new"method


it's not, but it's new to me Smile
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biobee
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Tim Rowe's introduction to his book:

"...I manage my bees in a particular way, for very specific goals, namely, health, increase and honey production."

He runs about 100 hives.

His method uses a single size box carrying 12 frames, intermediate between a BS National brood box and a BS super, based on "the maximum full weight I could comfortably carry". A full box weighs up to 25kg (!)

No queen excluders are used. No top ventilation (although he doesn't seem to be aware of Ed Clarke's book). He does use mesh floors.

Tim Rowe is clearly an experienced, effective and open-minded beekeeper, who has developed a method that works well for him. I have almost no argument with anything in his book, which I would recommend to anyone thinking of taking up beekeeping using conventional equipment while respecting the bees' need to build natural comb and to be left to do their stuff most of the time.

On the other hand, you would need to be fit and strong to be able to handle this type of beekeeping and it is certainly not for everyone.
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Cie
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dexter's shed wrote:
for that, I'd suggest you buy tim's book, or do some more research yourself


You've been offered advice by an horizontal TBH expert and a vertical TBH expert who've questioned what your planning based on their years of experience, because I suspect that they want to see the bees cared for as much as you appear to want to.

Their questions and advice aren't threatening, but they may challenge you. I too would like to know how you plan to lift 4 national supers, with next to no handles, and split the brood nest. How will you know when to do this? How will you do it without stressing the bees?

By the way, did you feed that swarm? That's a big old box to fill without any help, sitting in the deep shade of a wood.
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cie wrote:
...want to see the bees cared for...


Exactly so.

By asking you about what is done and when it is done I am just testing your understanding. Some accuse me of patronizing here and there and being a bad guy, but I am fine with it as long as it helps you and the bees. Wink

So an answer would be nice, please. What is done and when it is done?
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
Cie wrote:
...want to see the bees cared for...


Exactly so.

By asking you about what is done and when it is done I am just testing your understanding. Some accuse me of patronizing here and there and being a bad guy, but I am fine with it as long as it helps you and the bees. Wink

So an answer would be nice, please. What is done and when it is done?


my understanding of the rose method at this moment in time, is purely what I have seen on his video's, as I'm waiting for the book to be delivered,
so, when I was asked to remove the swarm I had three choices
1, leave them alone
2, pick them up and put into a poly nuc with national frames/foundation and eventually into a national hive
3, take a chance on my commercials with starter strips and see what happens, without full knowledge, you know which one I chose
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