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Rose Hive method
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 307
Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cie wrote:


I too would like to know how you plan to lift 4 national supers, with next to no handles, and split the brood nest How will you know when to do this?

watching tim's video's, I cant see anywhere where he needs to lift four boxes in one go??
inspecting the hive, and adding boxes to extend the brood, you would remove the uppermost box, place new box in and return the top box, that's lifting one box

>How will you do it without stressing the bees?


the same as you do when working with any other upright boxed hive

>By the way, did you feed that swarm? That's a big old box to fill without any help, sitting in the deep shade of a wood

I never feed any swarm, whatever hive they are going into, they will already have full belly's (pre swarm flight check list)and it's quite sunny in that spot, they do of course get fed after two days if they need it

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Cie
Foraging Bee


Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 242
Location: UK, Wiltshire, Amesbury

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim talks, at least in the first video, about splitting the brood nest which sits in the bottom box. So everything above that must be lifted. be it one box or five, at around 25kg each with the indented handles you have.

In my opinion, splitting the hive with a view to splitting the brood nest and putting a huge space in the way will be a massive stressor. Lots of people believe that stress leads to EFB and worse. Why not just nadir a box and they can expand down as and when they're ready. But then, you'll have to lift them all.

As for the feeding, whilst they swarmed after filling up, how do you know how much they actually have left? Feeding them helps to get them quickly through that initial period of not having any comb to lay or store in.

Hey, I'm just asking questions to learn, and maybe pass on what little knowledge I have. Very Happy I'm incredibly fortunate to have a rather experience Warré beek just down the road to leach information out of. I hope your swarm does well.
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Ciemon

Just another Warréor
[url=http://simplebees.wordpress.com] Simple Bees [/url] & [url=http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/warrebeekeeping/] Warré beekeeping [/url]
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 307
Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see what you mean now, but I think your looking at it wrong, at the start of the year (up until june ish) all your wanting to do, is let the bees make more bees, thus any amount of boxes will be brood, and therefore adding a box will only mean lifting the top box, however many boxes you have on that particular hive, then after june when the brood nest is receding your adding boxes for honey stores, again, only under the top box of stores, the only time I can see a need to move lots of boxes is when checking for queen cells, but even then (tim's words) if no qc are found in the top two boxes, then there wont be any further down, if there are qc's, then you'll have to remove more boxes, but you'll be doing AS's anyway

as Im not looking at stealing huge amounts of honey anyway, I dont see a problem with the small side grips, rather than taking a whole box, I'd rather take a couple of frames
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biobee
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Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone interested in Tim Rowe's method should get themselves a copy of his book, The Rose Hive, which is well-written and comprehensively describes his system, which clearly works well for him and has done for many years.

While he uses frames, he only uses strips of foundation with free comb.

Bernhard - it's a single-size box system, overwintered on two; box inserted between then in spring for expansion of brood nest; more added as required above box 1 until June; thereafter supered as required below the top box.

It is not directly comparable to the Warré system and cannot be judged by those parameters.

As I said before - and as fully admitted by Tim Rowe - its main drawback is the weights you will need to lift.

Checks for swarm cells are made by lifting one side of the box, he says, but you wouldn't want to have another one on top of it while you did that, I shouldn't think.
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That surely sounds horrible to me. Let me explain why.

If you overwinter on two boxes, the broodnest after winter most commonly is found either in the top box or between the top and bottom box. Stretching over two boxes.

If you insert a box in between, you most probably divide the broodnest with a full box! The brood in the bottom box will be dead because it chills to death. Separating brood boxes with brood in both boxes also end up with queen cells drawn by the bees in the distant brood nest. (Just like in the Demarrée method.)

If the broodnest sits in the top box, an empty box below - with starter strips! - will cause the bees to draw a box full of drone comb. Because the first comb in the year they want to build is drone comb. So you end up with a box with brood, followed by a box with drone comb and a box with emtpy comb at the bottom.

Is this splitting of the broodnest done in early early Spring, or is this done in mid May?

Either way, it is totally against the biology of the honeybee. It is complete bullsh*t to "expand the broodnest" in Spring. There is no such a thing like an expanding broodnest in early Spring. Of course there is the first buildup after winter. The broodnest builds up to 30,000 cells of brood typically. This is less than one standard box, one and a half box in a Warré hive. This size never expands until end of May. This is mathematically not possible! So expanding the broodnest (in total number of brood cells) only can be done late Spring, start of summer. So first you do in the early spring is not to expand the broodnest but the honey comb.

What happens if you provide additional room for the broodnest in early Spring?!

First all the abundand pollen is stored into the broodnest. The brood cells spread all over the available comb. Instead of having a tight ball shaped broodnest, you end up with a chaotic broodnest, pollen, brood all mixed and muddled up throughout three boxes.



This is the best way to harm the broodnest temperature and harmony in a bee hive: stuffing more comb into the broodnest at early Spring. It also triggers swarming, because although there is lots of comb, there is less and less space for the queen to lay eggs, because all the comb get clogged with pollen and nectar. The further the laying path of the queen gets, the lesser the chance for her to keep up with the foragers. Result is: less brood cells.

That principle is true for all locations. Because this is a bee thing.

It is a mismanagement to "expand the broodnest", because the broodnest doesn't expand anymore after the first spring buildup. It rather would be bee wise to remove all but one brood box and super with empty combs once the nectar flow hits. (If supered too early they only find pollen and stuff this into the empty cells. Bees don't like empty cells and want them filled with something.)

The next horrible thing to do is to super below the top box. Man...

If you watch the bees you note that there is a zone right above the broodnest, where pollen is stored. In the shape of a dome, broodnest, pollen dome, honey dome. In German we call it the stimulus zone. This is an important area for the bees. If you remove this zone up to the top and replace it with an emtpy box, this is completely against bee biology. Most disturbant. Also the honey ripening is endangered, because the heat of the broodnest is important for the honey to ferment and dry. Removing the honey from the broodnest over an empty box means you cool the honey which stops fermentation and drying. You end up with a higher moisture content of the honey and less enzymes in the honey.

Also one has to think of the broodnest as the "honey pump" of the hive. The broodnest, it's shape, size and harmony(!) is pumping the honey within the hive. Foragers need yound bees in order to unload their cargo and without the righteous harmony in the colony, honey cannot be buildup. In order to get a harmony one needs the right size, shape and age of the bees in that hive. By exploding brood or honey boxes you massively disturb the honeybee colony and thus the way it can perform.

The next disadvantage is the amount of supers used in this method which is a waste of material, no doubts! You can do the same with two boxes more efficiently and more bee wise. I actually do this with standard conventional frame boxes. One box is for the brood, the other for the honey. That is it. I got spring honey with a moisture of 13,5 % this year. And a high enzyme content. (Lab tested.) For the 3 to 6 boxes used in the "Rose method" I run three colonies.

Checking for swarm cells by tilting the hive is most unreliable and will end up with swarms. Of course, if you split the hives to death or nearly so, you don't get swarms. You don't get much honey either.

I cannot see what successful means when it comes to this method. It doesn't seem a favourable method to me, neither for the beekeeper nor for the bees. The poor girls!

The plain number of hundred hives doesn't mean anything to me. I know of beekeepers who own 2,000 hives, only 200 of them populated regularily and stating they do sucessful beekeeping.

If every single box is populated all the time and you get a minimum of 50 kg/110 pound of honey per year average, that means successful beekeeping to me. Natural beekeeping means less honey production, yes, but one has to see, that a honeybee colony cannot be pushed for honey production! The only way to produce honey is to care for a strong healthy colony that wants it. In a conventional honey production method an average of 100 kg/220 pound honey harvest should be reached per colony.

The only difference to natural beekeeping is, that the hives are moved from one flow to the other and empty comb is provided after extracting. That's it!

I asked a many professional beekeepers how they push bees for honey production. Real experts! The answer of them - all over the world! - was: you can't. You care for the bees, keep them well fed all the time and as healthy as possible. The rest is supering. They all agreed: the less you do in the broodnest area, the better they thrive and as a result produce honey.

So any fiddling in the broodnest will reduce the strength of the honeybee colony.

I am preparing an experiment for the next year to show what I writed above in different types of hives. I populate a conventional Dadant hive, a TBH, a Bienenkiste, a long hive and some other unconventional hives and run them for honey production side by side. Not to find the best type of hive, but to show what a 94 old beekeeper, one of my mentors, said to me:

It is not the hive or method that brings the honey, it's still the bees themself that do the job.

All in all I cannot see anything in this method that is close to be bee wise or in accordance with bee biology. If he is splitting hives like described he must have a lot of extra hives each year. Where do they go? How much honey is he producing per hive each year? Just because he has hundreds of boxes populated doesn't mean this method is working. Bees are surviving humans caused disaster, yes, but this doesn't mean anything.

We as natural beekeepers have the duty, to fully understand the bees' biology and to go by that beeology.

I am myself learning this and did a lot of fiddling in the past. First hand experienced bullsh*t. Just to learn myself, that the bees have to be left untouched so they can do what they are born to. So let me rant, I am ranting to myself, too.
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
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Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

your right as always, what was I thinking, to try a different way to you, you should give me a good hard thrashing, even Phil, who's forum this is, and keeps bees in a total different manner, accepts that there's other ways to keep bees other than "his way"
you've made me remember why I stopped posting on this forum, you can have it back now, lord of the manor
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See the development of the number of broodcells during Spring:



As you can see, the broodnest doesn't expand over 8 Warré frame sized combs. Of course, not all cells of all combs of a box is filled with brood, so two Warré hive boxes contain brood combs worth of 30,000 cells of brood.

Once Warré comb has 3,500 cells. A typical conventional frame has 5,000 cells. So during Spring buildup you need 30,000 cells/5,000 cells per comb = 6 conventional frames for the broodnest. That is it. You need one or two combs with honey and pollen, of course. A conventional box with 10 frames has a little too much cells and is prone to get pollen clogged.

Bottom line: There is a lot of expansion in bee numbers in Spring, but there is no expansion in broodnest size in early Spring. Why the heck is everyone (including myself in the past...) trying to "expand the broodnest" in Spring?! It is the most stupid thing to do and against beeology.

The bees produced by the hive want to forage and if you provide them combs to dump the stuff they forage, you do them a favour. Don't give empty cells in early Spring when there is pollen available only. Give empty cells once the first nectar flow hits. They draw out comb in the supers in no time (a week) even with starter strips and fill it with honey. The honey gets cared for with all the bees, the bees do not think of swarming (this they do once the broodnest is clogged and the harmony of the hive is disturbed because the broodnest is not functioning properly.)
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dexter's shed wrote:
your right as always, what was I thinking, to try a different way to you,...


I wasn't promoting my way or my method. Instead I am discussing the method named in the context of bee biology.

Dexter's shed wrote:
you've made me remember why I stopped posting on this forum, you can have it back now, lord of the manor


Oh come on, were my posts really so bad to be in a huff? I wasn't personal offending anyone and just critizing the points I reckon are against bee biology. I might be completely wrong and do learn eagerly if you can show me the bee right way.

I am wrong all the time and do know that. I was critized, too, even bashed, all the time and I learn from it. Step by step I go forward. Without people critizing me I wouldn't be there where I am. (And still way to go.)

So don't think I am just shooting or bashing it down, just want to critize where I think it is appropiate. Do you expect and accept Hooray! only? Smile

Shall I leave the forum and shut up? And if so: why?
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biobee
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernhard - your analysis is always welcomed and I hope you wouldn't really wish to leave!

My only observation here is that this method - for all it's apparent drawbacks - does seem to work well (exactly how well, I don't know) in a place that has a less-than-ideal climate and is far from being a bee paradise. It's not something I would want to do, but having just had an argument with an American plastic foundation advocate on Facebook who accused me of wanting to "cut down rainforests to make top bar hives", sometimes you just have to accept that some people do their beekeeping differently...

I would like to clarify one point - you say that the brood nest does not expand. Yet the queen clearly increases her egg-laying rate from early spring through to mid summer, so the area laid out and therefore the 'brood nest' must expand, surely?
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quioui
Foraging Bee


Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Istanbul, Turkey

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's quite confusing for me too Bernhard. I have a colony in a Warre hive that has overwintered in a single box and now has brood in 3 boxes. So it seems to me the brood nest does expand.
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might have brood in all boxes, but if you count the cells having brood, you'll find that the number of cells would fit in one box. See the picture above, it shows brood in all three boxes, but most combs have pollen and nectar. Three Warré boxes by eight frames by 3,500 cells per comb.

3 boxes x 8 combs per box x 3,500 cells per comb = 84,000 cells in total.

Even if your queen lays 2,000 eggs per day continiously (she doesn't...) she'd need 42 days to lay eggs in all cells. Well, after 21 days the first cells emerge. So the bottom line is: the queen can't catch up. The brood emerges, the cells are empty for a while, workers fill it with either pollen or nectar. Result: broodnest is backfilled. Queen has less and less space to lay eggs. Brood is patchy, spreaded all over the hive.

This is all very disadvantageous for the bees. Less and spreaded brood makes the bees think the queen fails. First queen cells appear.

So by providing too much space for the brood you actually end up with less brood. Smile

The broodnest doesn't expand, it explodes if you provide more brood comb. You see the same amount of cells but exploded throughout the three boxes.
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quioui
Foraging Bee


Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Istanbul, Turkey

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree but as more and more bees emerge you have more nurse bees without a job which is the main reason for a colony to swarm, Michael Bush says. A good way to find a job for those bees is to get them build new comb, which gets filled with brood and new jobs are created.

In my experience established colonies don't build new comb unless you create empty spaces in the brood nest and if you don't expand the brood nest they swarm and you end up with no honey.

You say super the hive with empty combs during the nectar flow but where do you get those empty combs if you are not using foundation?
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Tim Rowe
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Joined: 27 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everyone, I’m hesitant to get involved in forums these days – things can get fractious so quickly – but I thought I’d just jump in here with some clarifications. Hope no one minds.

My bees need far more space for brood than just one brood box. A good young queen will easily lay right up through 5 boxes, but I guess the total space of brood would fit into half that. BUT that’s only if you stop them doing what they want to do, which is positioning the brood nest in the centre of the combs. They need the 5 boxes to do things the way they should be done, with food and insulation surrounding the brood.

All you have to do is look at a wild colony in a tree or a roof-space to see how big the brood nest is and how they choose to lay it out. I simply allow the bees to do what they want – giving them space where they need it.

(Of course splitting the brood vertically doesn’t chill the brood - do you think I would do it if it did?! I make my living selling honey mostly – I can only do that with healthy productive hives, obviously).

I’m sorry if the videos aren’t clear enough – one of them shows me splitting a hive into a few parts. Because the brood nest runs up through the hive (not just at the bottom), taking boxes off (and giving them each a roof and a floor) splits the brood too. I just juggle a few frames around to make sure there’s a balance in each box.

Yes, I need to lift boxes off one at a time to look at the bottom ones. What’s wrong with that? Yes they’re heavy when they’re full of honey. But not too heavy. If they were too heavy I would just use smaller boxes.

I don’t try to control swarming – just manage it. I expect every colony to swarm (often not till June here – this is a wet and cool area) because that's what bees are supposed to do – and I just watch to see when they begin preparations. At that point I can requeen, or split, but there’s no point in trying to supress it – they’ll do it anyway while you’re looking the other way. Once they’ve swarmed, if they have enough space, then they are unlikely to swarm again that year, so they need much less involvement from me.

I developed the rose hive method many years ago now, and wrote the book in 2010. the book has sold 3,500 copies and I get dozens of favourable emails a month. I never set out to persuade anyone to do things my way, just offer them my experiences. I’ve been keeping bees nearly 40 years now and I count myself as a professional beekeeper. I can’t imagine going back to any other sort of hive.

I really don’t care how anyone else keeps their bees – I’m just happy that they do. I don’t mind anyone criticising my methods either, as long as they understand them first. I would be very happy to donate a copy of the book to anyone on this forum and only ask that they pass it on when they’ve read it.

New video going up on the website this week on making the boxes! Sorry this is a bit rushed. Apologies too, if I don’t follow up much on this – it’s very busy here! Best wishes to all, Tim
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quioui wrote:
...more bees emerge you have more nurse bees without a job


Their job is to draw comb in the supers and fill it with honey. Smile

quioui wrote:
..Michael Bush says.


He says a lot of things. Rolling Eyes

quioui wrote:
..but where do you get those empty combs if you are not using foundation?


Bees need no foundation to draw comb. They draw lots of comb if you let them work in the supers. They draw a super, foundation or not, in a week. Slightly advantage for the foundation, though.
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Broadwell
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Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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Location: UK, Kent, High Weald

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tim,

Thank you for posting. I have read with interest what I have found about your system and have been quite taken with it as a way of keeping bees.

In reading about it I saw that someone posted on this forum that you've had an enormous problem with American foulbrood in your hives (his words).

This may be just a rumour, but if so you might like to clear that up? As someone who was thinking of trying expanding the brood area, reading that left me questioning it, as I have been persuaded elsewhere that certain beekeeping practices increase the prevalence of the foulbroods.

I wish you and your bees well in what sounds like it must be the beginning of the swarming season right now. Very Happy
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tim,

thank you for joining into the discussion. Greatly appreciated!

Tim Rowe wrote:
My bees need far more space for brood than just one brood box. A good young queen will easily lay right up through 5 boxes, but I guess the total space of brood would fit into half that.


If you would not guess but look very close, you'll find the total amount of brood fits into one box. That's it. I tried the same as you did, keeping 5 brood boxes stacked. I did comparisons, shaking out all bees and compare bee weight and amount of brood cells. At different times in the year and never found a difference between one box, three and five box hives, except that the five box has scattered brood all over and that's it.

It is a complete waste of ressources to keep bees in multiple brood boxes. If you have to live from it, you simply can't afford that waste of ressources.

Tim Rowe wrote:
BUT that’s only if you stop them doing what they want to do, which is positioning the brood nest in the centre of the combs. ...All you have to do is look at a wild colony in a tree or a roof-space to see how big the brood nest is and how they choose to lay it out.


How many wild colonies in trees have you found that had a cavity with a diameter of a conventional hive? It is a manmade thing to use broad/wide/lengthy combs. Wild combs I came along have not been so wide. The diameter in a tree cavitiy is usually small. Seeley found a diameter of 15-20 cm(!) to be the tree standard. Compare this with Lang frames: 43-45 cm!

By providing space at the sides of the brood you trigger backfilling and clogging of the broodnest. It is a manmade problem and not "natural" if you find your brood centered (pressed!) on the combs.

Tim Rowe wrote:
I don’t try to control swarming – just manage it.


Ok, fine. I do not know many professionals here in Germany who does no swarm control, in fact I do not know one, because they cannot afford it. And all of them including me are very successful in controlling swarms. If you do not have to look for cells throughout five boxes but only one or two, plus keeping the broodnest free from backfilling with nectar, which is done by NOT expanding the broodnest but instead expanding the honey supers, you do not have much of a swarm problem. As others I do track and ID my queens, so I know when a hive has swarmed. They don't if you take care for a working broodnest. The overly tendency to swarm comes from a disfunctioning broodnest in the first place. Of course there is reproduction swarming but this is less intensive as one thinks. Most swarms are from disfunctional broodnests. Manmade problems!

I wonder how you can make a living on honey production and let them swarm and use five brood boxes per colony? For a living what counts is production per box I reckon. Using the double and triple number of boxes seems to be a waste to me. I am really interested in this since I am investing a lot of money into my beekeeping to make a living out of it. Wonder how you can afford 100(?) hives sitting on five brood boxes. Five hundred brood boxes do cost how much? Plus you need the supers? How much do you produce per hive? Per box?

Tim Rowe wrote:
I don’t mind anyone criticising my methods either, as long as they understand them first.


I am ready to learn. From what I have experimented myself -> I was following the Dee Lusby and Oscar Perone methods - I simply saw the flaws of this style of beekeeping. Not just for the beekeeper but for the bees, too.

This is one of my five brood boxes hives:
(Conventional frame size)

Flaws are:
- broodnest not compact. Means less warmth as a ball shape of the broodnest is kept much warmer by the bees than a scattered chaotic shape.

- backfilling less likely in a compact broodnest

- laying pattern of the queen is in harmony. If the first layed eggs emerge after 21 days the queen returns to that cell and lays another egg into it. Right in the pace of the queen. In spirals, the queen is laying in spirals. In broodnest with scattered brood and pollen and nectar there is no spiral, just a queen that can't keep pace and strolls all around the hive trying to find an empty cell before it is stuffed with pollen.

- hygiene of the broodnest. If you scatter the broodnest throughout many boxes, the bees can't possibly clean the nest properly. You do not have more bees in your hive, but the same amount of bees trying to keep clean the oversized space of the super hive.

- less production per box.

- you can't move the hive. If you are in bee wonderland with forage all year round and no agricultural pesticides around, fine. I do have to move bees all the time so they do not hunger and not get poisoned. I do not move stacks of five brood boxes plus supers.

- no swarm control possible. It is difficult to prevent swarming with multiple boxes, once the bees got into the swarmy mood. And they do get into swarm mode when the backfilling of the broodnest starts, which is prematurely the case in a spreaded out broodnest.

- less honey. While this doesn't matter to a hobbyist it does for a commercial beekeeper. You have five boxes of combs scattered with brood, pollen and honey which can't be harvested properly. If you work with one brood box and four honey supers you end up with way more honey, with the same amount of brood and bees. For sure. I did shakedowns of colonies on different numbers of brood boxes. 1 box, 2 boxes, 3 boxes and 5 boxes. Although a 5 box hive seems to be huge, if you shake out the bees there are no more bees than in the other hives - just spreaded. And this spreading is leading to less bees per comb, leading to less hygiene of the combs and:

- leading to higher honey moisture. I am interested in the floral sources of your honey and what the moisture content is. I usually get 13-15 % water content of the honey. This is because the compact broodnest creates a lot of warmth and this dries the honey pretty well. How is this with your method?

So some things to discuss here. Hope you don't think of it as an attack, it isn't. It obviously works for you. I want to understand why. The discussion might help others to assess the different methods. It also might prevent financial losses (think of a beginning commercial beekeeper adopting your methods failing!) and catastrophes for the bees in the hobbyist backyard apiary.

Most beekeeping is local, the discussion helps others to find their way. So hopefully you see this as an open discussion with no intention to find the truth. This is at least what I am up to, learn from each other and do compare and simply think about things.
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Dexter's shed
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Posts: 307
Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
how you can afford 100(?) hives sitting on five brood boxes. Five hundred brood boxes do cost how much? Plus you need the supers?





So some things to discuss here. Hope you don't think of it as an attack, it isn't. It obviously works for you. I want to understand why. The discussion might help others to assess the different methods. It also might prevent financial losses (think of a beginning commercial beekeeper adopting your methods failing!) and catastrophes for the bees in the hobbyist backyard apiary.

with no intention to find the truth. This is at least what I am up to
I thought asking Tim to comment would help finish this post,how wrong I was, I think Z's should apply for the free book, although will he read it and let it sink in, that's another matter, as Z's is still reffering to brood and supers as two different items
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quioui
Foraging Bee


Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Istanbul, Turkey

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have tried supering an empty box on top of the brood nest but the bees didn't occupy the space. Our main nectar flow will be in 1-2 weeks, I will try it again when the flow starts. What if the early nectar flow is not strong enough to fill a box?
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quioui
Foraging Bee


Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Istanbul, Turkey

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dexter's shed, please calm down.
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Dexter's shed
Scout Bee


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 307
Location: Grays, Essex, UK

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quioui wrote:
Dexter's shed, please calm down.


yes, your right, I need to go watch my bees, it's so relaxing, but the heavens have opened here Very Happy
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broadwell wrote:
...American foulbrood...


Even if...there is no way you can either blame the beekeeper or his method for it. It just happens.

@quioui: The bees will be strong enough when the flow starts. The bees somehow adapt to the environment. Remember: one comb of capped brood makes three combs worth of bees! So depending on how many capped brood you have now, you have three times more combs of bees in two weeks. Smile
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Broadwell
Foraging Bee


Joined: 22 Jul 2013
Posts: 122
Location: UK, Kent, High Weald

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
Broadwell wrote:
...American foulbrood...


Even if...there is no way you can either blame the beekeeper or his method for it. It just happens.


Not necessarily.

As I just wrote in another post –

Goodwin et al. tested 109 ferals and 15 managed hives. 7 ferals had foulbrood spores. All 15 managed hives had foulbrood spores. 6 managed hives had only one larva showing clinical AFB. Only one of the ferals had a spore count higher than the lowest in the managed colonies. Bailey (1958) reported that a study of 100 ferals in Sussex did not reveal any cases of foulbrood although it was present locally in managed colonies. Miller (1935) reported that of the many feral colonies killed in Michigan none had AFB although 13% of the local beekeepers' colonies were infested.

To quote David Heaf – 'Miller, Goodwin and Bailey all agree that the foulbroods are diseases of beekeeping, in that certain beekeeping practices increase their prevalence.'

Les Crowder tried to infect one of his colonies with foulbrood by giving it an infected frame of brood. The bees just cleaned it up. Surprised, he repeated the experiment. They cleaned it up again.
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WileyHunter
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Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 125
Location: Batesville, IN USA

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quioui wrote:
Dexter's shed, please calm down.


I second that...

There is nothing wrong with the discussion that zaunreiter is providing here (both prior to, and now after Tim was prompted to join in), he is not bashing anyone but rather asking the "tough questions" that make people THINK! Questions, honestly, that a beginner such as myself, wouldn't even know enough about to ask. Questions that make sense, and will "hopefully" help someone who is looking for a better approach to keeping make the right "informed" decision. Being that Tim "wrote the book" on the "Rose Hive Method" I think it very appropriate for HIM to be questioned and provide the answers, as we will then have clarification straight from the source, rather than a readers interpretation of his material.
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know of these studies. But we are surrounded by all sorts of beekeepers and not an island. The "right way to keep bees" doesn't prevent anything per se. Most foulbrood cases I came across were caused by robbing which is caused by letting them bees go hungry and putting too many hives into one location. Migratory beekeepers tend to have less trouble with foulbrood because they move their bees from flow to flow, so no starvation and litte robbing occurs.
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WileyHunter
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Joined: 13 Jan 2014
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Location: Batesville, IN USA

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject: Book offer Reply with quote

Tim Rowe wrote:
I would be very happy to donate a copy of the book to anyone on this forum and only ask that they pass it on when they’ve read it.


Generous offer, and one that I am taking Tim up on. I hope that between reading the book, and a continued, open discussion here, things will clear up considerably. Thanks Tim.
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stevecook172001
Site Admin


Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 443
Location: Loftus, Cleveland

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on Dexter, chill man. I don't think Z is being rude or arrogant. He is just being somewhat Germanically precise in his critique/analysis/questions and that's something to be very much welcomed. At least from the perspective of a numb-nuts newbie like me... Smile

I frequent a lot of forums Dexter and I know "smart-arse" when I see it and I honestly don't think Z can be validly accused of that on this thread. I think, perhaps, all that's going on here is merely a slight miss-communication between some people due to cultural differences in communication style.


Last edited by stevecook172001 on Tue May 27, 2014 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Broadwell
Foraging Bee


Joined: 22 Jul 2013
Posts: 122
Location: UK, Kent, High Weald

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
Most foulbrood cases I came across were caused by robbing which is caused by letting them bees go hungry and putting too many hives into one location.


I accept that forage and therefore nutrition are possible causes of poor bee health. In fact Bailey says "There is evidence that even American foul brood may be suppressed by good nectar flows."

But poor nutrition is by no means the only factor that can weaken a colony and therefore open the way for disease to set in.

I give way to your superior knowledge (genuinely), and Tim's too, but rightly or wrongly wanted to question whether splitting the brood area with an empty box of frames may both encourage the production of brood and possibly stretch a colony's immune system.
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johno
Guard Bee


Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 60
Location: Limerick, Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to quickly chime in here. I'm trying the Rose Hive method on my first hive. I didn't buy OSB boxes, I bought a national hive starter kit. I got a floor, roof, brood box and 2 supers. I used to brood box to house the bees I got from a national nuc. I converted the supers to OSB boxes (188mm) by building a couple of 38mm ekes and stapling them to the bottom of the supers. 38mm ekes are really easy to make. 38mmx19mm lathes are available pretty much everywhere. My OSB frames are made from national brood frames that have the side bars cut down to size. I use 1/6 of an unwired super foundation sheet in each frame. It fills about 10% of the frame and leaves 90% for the bees to build whatever kind of comb they like.

This hive swarmed recently and I took a split from it which I put into a top bar nuc. Both hives are now producing queens which will be sisters, and they are sitting side by side. I think this will give me a reasonably good baseline for comparing them in the future.

A lot of the criticisms I've read in this thread only serve to display ignorance about the method. It's a method, not a hive design. If you don't like the handles you can change them. If you can't lift as much weight as others, you can use smaller boxes, or a different method entirely. If you're not breeding Apis Mellifera Mellifera, don't blame others that have them. There are no brood boxes or supers, using those terms makes your post extremely hard to understand in this context. Finally, AFB can be spread through commercial honey. An open jar of infected honey can wipe out any type of hives for miles around. If Tim was unlucky enough to be hit by it, it might have nothing to do with his methods, and suggesting that it does is only an attempt to spread FUD.

johno
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biobee
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1055
Location: UK, England, S. Devon

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case anyone can't find Tim Rowe's video about the Rose Hive, it's here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMcBiCcuC8w
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zaunreiter
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes me sad when people are cruel to the bees. This "method" goes against anything I've learned from the bees. The broodnest is holy, splitting and dividing the broodnest is a crime against bees.

The "arguments" are weak. Like the broodnest "expanding". There is no such a thing. After the broodnest first grows in Spring it simply doesn't grow anymore. Yeah, you can certainly spread the brood all over the hive, but that doesn't produce more brood. It just looks like it produces more brood. But that is an illusion. The queen has a natural limit when it comes to egg laying.

This method certainly doesn't work in areas with no late flow. Do they have heather or something in that area? Also it doesn't work in areas with canola/rape, or dandelions or other fast crystallizing honeys.

It looks like the insertion of an empty box into the broodnest disturbs the bees massivley which breaks the will to swarm for some time. Also population builds up a bit slowlier and this way the hive is "prepared" for the late flow.
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