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Rose Hive method
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biobee
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that it is excessively invasive. I can only assume that splitting the brood has the effect of preventing - or at least, alleviating - the possibility of the queen becoming honey bound, and so potentially allowing her space to lay, as long as they can draw those combs fast enough...

My concern would be that this would cause nurse bees to be spread too thinly and lead to chilling.
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CharlieBnoobee
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:


The "arguments" are weak. Like the broodnest "expanding". There is no such a thing. After the broodnest first grows in Spring it simply doesn't grow anymore. Yeah, you can certainly spread the brood all over the hive, but that doesn't produce more brood. It just looks like it produces more brood. But that is an illusion. The queen has a natural limit when it comes to egg laying.
...

It looks like the insertion of an empty box into the broodnest disturbs the bees massivley which breaks the will to swarm for some time. Also population builds up a bit slowlier and this way the hive is "prepared" for the late flow.



So... Question for Bernhard and Tim, and anyone else who might want to chime in:

IF:
1. There were a means, integral to a hive management system, of easily lifting and lowering—smoothly, gently, and straight up and down—any portion of the hive to-and-including the entire stack together, however much that may weigh, and…
2. Such a device could be quickly and easily set up and operated by only one person, and…
3. It had the ability to lift a fully honey-laden box off the top, swing it out to the side of the hive, and lower it gently to a cart or hand truck for removal...

THEN:
Wouldn't it make sense to...
1. Nadir at the very bottom of the hive stack (classical Warré method) only when the brood nest —i.e. the actual brood population—is growing faster than cells are being vacated by emerging bees. And...
2. During periods of heavy nectar flow/honey production and demand for empty cells exceeds the rate of bee emergence, add empty boxes immediately above the top of the brood nest, but not necessarily at the very top (i.e. classical supering). In other words, there may well be one or more boxes of ripening honey above the freshly inserted empty box.
3. Harvest only from the top, one box at a time.

Would not such a method/system keep the brood nest intact and compact?

Charlie
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not over-complicate things. It is better to nadir the boxes during the growth of the broodnest, which is in their first year of development. A typical broodnest needs two Warré boxes, no more, no less. I would say, this is for Spring buildup only, typically one broodbox is enough if you come close to the summer solstice and after.

I would not advice to insert any honey super but set them on top only. Because bees like to store pollen above their heads and the cells they use for certain things are marked with a scent. Maybe this is due to the microbes living in there. Any way: you raise a part of the hive with cells marked for pollen and with cells made for brood rearing (look at the angles in those cells). You end up with pollen all over the hive, with brood all over the hive - or with an excluder: with half-filled honeycombs instead of fully loaden combs. The difference is 10 kg for a partially filled (but capped!) honey super to 15 kg for a fully filled Warré super.

Also you divide the ripe honey from the broodnest. The honey needs the warmth of the broodnest. You end up with honey that draws water, because it cools quickly by that disruption and you get condensation. And no: the cappings do not prevent water exchange between ambient air and honey. You can dry honey by 1-2 % overnight by storing them in a hot room. (28°C, <60 % rel. humid.) So better don't divide the ripe honey from the warmth below.

You can do this sort of muddling boxes around in apiaries distant to industrial agriculture. Maybe the bees survive such a disaster for some years. Where I live this sort of management - inserting boxes here and there, for no apparent reason, will defintely kill the bees. The bees' immune system is already weakened and with all the mites and bugs and hive beetles coming our way, we need to learn to keep the bees as proper as possible.

I played around like this before, too. Shuffling boxes. But I gave it up, recognizing, that the bees know best and by keeping all things very compact and strong. You will need it in future, to keep them as strong as possible. Weaker splits here, disrupting box shuffling there, you will end up with dead hives. It maybe is a special situation here, where I live, but I reckon' such experiences are useful in a less stressful situation elsewhere, too.

Bernhard
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CharlieBnoobee
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In summary then, can we describe hive growth and contraction as being the result of two distinct and separate, albeit intimately related growth rates (+ and -); to wit,
a.— the increase and decrease of the brood population, and
b.— the increase and decrease of honey/pollen stores?

Now, gathering from what you and many others have observed, bees have a marked preference in just how and where these items (brood and stores) are placed in the hive. To thwart these preferences stresses the colony as a super organism, thereby lowering its ability to cope with and survive outside stressors and conditions.
At risk of putting words in your mouth, Bernhard, I think one can reasonably conclude from what you’ve said so far, that the evident success of the methods that involve disrupting the bee-preferred arrangements of brood and stores is in spite of that disruption and not because of it. Nicht Wahr?
Please correct or amend any of the above if I’ve missed or misstated anything.

Charlie
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got it right. Although I like the view of two phases: initial growth after colony establishment and secondary growth for honey storage. The broodnest neither moves up or down, nor expands in any way. After the spring buildup the nest size is uniform. Only the honey part grows after that.

By inserting, splitting and checkerboarding and other odd things some do to the bees - trying to "expand the broodnest" - is a complete disruption of the queen's laying pattern and disruption of the broodnest's integrity. They think they produced more brood and more bees, but whatever method I tried, I never ended up with more brood. It just appears or looks like you get more bees, but you don't if you really look close. It is just an illusion and wishful thinking. However you try to push the bees.

They call it success as they call a box with bees a hive. Wink

I did try myself a lot of those things, and never got better results than let the bees do what they do. Keep the integrity intact, keep them compact, keep them warm. You get the best results. Results that you can reproduce over and over again.
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BBC
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
By inserting, splitting and checkerboarding and other odd things some do to the bees - trying to "expand the broodnest" - is a complete disruption of the queen's laying pattern and disruption of the broodnest's integrity. They think they produced more brood and more bees, but whatever method I tried, I never ended up with more brood. It just appears or looks like you get more bees, but you don't if you really look close. It is just an illusion and wishful thinking. However you try to push the bees.

They call it success as they call a box with bees a hive. Wink



Much of what you write is good advice Bernhard, but not always.

Earlier in the year I mentioned that I was about to remove a couple of frames from one colony to keep it from swarming, and yet keep the numbers of bees as high as possible. You then proceeded to give me an unsolicited lecture that a) this wouldn't stop swarming, and b) I should stop making regular inspections as doing so can actually cause swarming.

Guess what ? By removing a couple of frames then, and a couple more a month or so later, and by making my weekly inspections, neither that hive nor any other hive swarmed.


You are now saying that splitting, checkerboarding etc., results only in an illusion of creating more bees.

Guess what ? By doing precisely those things, I made an eight-fold (X8 ) increase in colony numbers this year, and all colonies bar one (where I cloned a colony at the very last moment - but with luck, fondant, and some reasonable weather it should be ok) are strong, queen-right and going into winter with plenty of stores.

Now - would your 'respecting of the holy brood-nest' have generated that kind of increase ? I very much doubt it.

What you are effectively saying is that you are a wise and understanding beekeeper, whereas everyone else (and that's hundreds of thousands of beekeepers worldwide) have got it completely wrong. I don't buy that.

Colin
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Colin,

BBC wrote:
What you are effectively saying.


Effectively you are putting words in my mouth and imply intentions I do not have. That is a bit rude.

I do speak from experience and you simply can't beat that. I know a many beekeepers with a lot more experience than I have. And guess what: I learn from them. Thankfully they are patient with me. I am humble enough to recognize, that I still have a long way to go, and a lot to learn.

I like to share what I've learned, that's it. That's my whole intention. Sharing.

You made an eightfold increase and maybe think, that is the way to go. From what I experienced, such colonies are more prone to swarming and diseases next year. So you maybe get 30 kg of honey per hive next year - I doubt it! -, which is close to starving.

It is a common beginner's mistake (including myself) to produce a long row of hives but weak hives. Weak means, those hives may look and appear strong, you see bees all over the hive, but in reality they aren't real strong. Stable strength and health. It is not only quantity but quality of the bees that counts.

The problem with small units and splits is, the queen gets not feeded properly enough. That really hurts her, which leads to a failing or weak queen next year, which produces a large urge to swarm and reset the hive. A lot of more work for you. Next year.

The brood will not get nourished well enough, too. You maybe see bees in those hives made from small splits. But are those bees fatty? Do they have enough winter fat? If not, a good portion of those many bees have a shortened lifespan and will die during winter. You end up with a colony that is alive after winter. Hey, a box with bees....But with a smaller number of bees that would be possible. Those hives cannot build up early enough, to make any use of the first flows. The other problem with small hives in Spring is, that you get a lot of stress illnesses, like Nosema for example, because the broodnest chills in the cold spring nights. Do you know how silent hidden Nosema can be detected?

Bottom line is, it is not a success to produce a number of hives from small splits. It is a success to do the increase that way, that you don't get into trouble next years. Yes, years. Your decisions today will affect you for many years. If you do the small split thing, you ask for trouble and end up with more swarming, more diseases next year and the years after, if you do not sanitize the hives.

Also do the math. A really strong hive produces 100 kg/220 pounds of honey per year. (Average.) A hive that basicly starves most time of the year produces 10 kg. That is not only because of the missing forage possibilities but because weak hives do not forage so much. Now, one hive cost you 100-120 € per year, running costs. (Frame hives.) What is better: 1 hive that cost you 100 € per year and produces 100 kg = 1,000 €? With a net win of 900 €?

Or eight hives costing 800 € in total (again: running costs), producing only 10 kg per hive x 8 hives = 80 kg of honey = 800 €. Net win: 0 €.

I do not say, it cannot be done. In fact, there are ways to increase an apiary by the hundredfold. x100! If you know exactly what you do, it can be done. With a lot of supplemental feed, medication and so. I'll post the study later. You also need to requeen all the units with queens that grew up in stronger hives.

Most beekeepers working with smaller splits may do increase eightfold every year, but recombine splits before winter. So making four new hives, and combine them to four hives before winter. This is the way successful queen breeders do it - or the old skep beekeepers in the good old days.

I doubt that you are happy with the outcome of such methods. I had the luck to visit many professional beekeepers, who by preserving strength and the integrity of the broodnest, produce much more honey, than those I visit who muddle around with the broodnest all time. It is a ironic thing, that those who do not try to "increase/expand the broodnest" actually do get more bees and better bees. The more frames you shuffle, the less productive the bees are. Of course a lot of things in beekeeping are local, but from experience I bet you will like the integrity method over any other method if compared side by side.

I don't say do not inspect the hive, or so. But forget about checkerboarding, stacking high hive towers, forget about stimulative feeding, about artificial broodnest expansion, small units and splits and other manipulations who are in the end, worthless. Try it yourself, side by side and see.

Bernhard


Last edited by zaunreiter on Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Che Guebuddha
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if the environment has anything to do with it but my local bee inspector has been making weak splits on only 2 combs for the last 20 years without losses. They even winter on 2 combs. As a matter of fact he has very few losses compared to other beeks in the same area.

Those small splits develope next year into strong hives which make 50-75kg honey. He winters 4 such colonies per box separated by dummy boards. He treats all his hives with Oxalic.

One friend has top bar hives for the last 6 years treatment free and he is not making much honey since he lets them swarm naturally. After the swarm the mother hive is on the weak side yet they survive winter year after year without extra feeding. The fact is they are not dying.

Maybe the environment has something to do with it since both cases live in biodiverse areas. But then they have local beeks with high losses and they prevent swarming and do stuff conventionally ... maybe something to do with bee genetics too.

The bee inspector only uses his own wax. My friend only has natural comb. Maybe that could also be the factor.

Or maybe they have unknowingly placed their hives on Earth stress lines and that is making the colonies strong ...

Michael Bush use checker boarding and he has very good treatment free results.
It seems we all have to find our own way which seems to work best for the bees.
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For your interest:

Increasing from 100 to 1,000 hives in three months.
http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/slovenia/en/yeganehrad.pdf

Presentation:
http://caspianapiaries.com/presentation/100_1000_hives.pdf
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of food for thought in this study: The present study provides evidence that, in honey bees, queen reproductive potential affects several factors of her colony’s phenotype. As such, we show that a honey bee colony may be seen as the ‘expanded phenotype’ of its queen.
The effects of honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) queen reproductive potential on colony growth
http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs00040-012-0267-1

Extrapolate this on how you treat/manipulate your bees.
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BBC
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:
Dear Colin,

BBC wrote:
What you are effectively saying.


Effectively you are putting words in my mouth and imply intentions I do not have. That is a bit rude.

Let's not take my words out of context - what I said was: "What you are effectively saying is that you are a wise and understanding beekeeper, whereas everyone else (and that's hundreds of thousands of beekeepers worldwide) have got it completely wrong. I don't buy that."

That is the opinion I have formed from my reading of your posts recently, and I stand by my right to express that opinion. But - perhaps "saying" was a bad choice of word. How about "claiming" instead ? And - I don't see any "intentions" anywhere ... ?

Quote:
I like to share what I've learned, that's it. That's my whole intention. Sharing.

Well - what you call 'sharing' certainly has an evangelical ring to it ... Your method being right, everybody else's wrong.

Take for example your words in: http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16168
Quote:
If you want to prevent swarms - better don't look too often into the hives. A weekly check is actually more likely to trigger swarm activities instead of preventing them! So to prevent swarming in the first place, keep hands out of the hive, weekly checks can produce the opposite.

The only way to prevent swarming is to remove the old queen one way or the other. (splits, Demarrée, name it...) The most reliable and best way is a queen split in my experience.

To reduce swarming, there are few tricks.
(lecture followed ...)


The ONLY way to prevent swarming - is that not an example of "I know and you don't" ?

And talk about making assumptions ... I'll just list a couple:
Quote:
You made an eightfold increase and maybe think, that is the way to go.

At no time have I said (or even thought) that this strategy is "the way" - i.e. will be repeated repeatedly. That is your assumption. It has served it's purpose during this season in the creation of sufficient working colonies for next year. It will only be repeated if it ever again becomes necessary.
Quote:
So you maybe get 30 kg of honey per hive next year - I doubt it! -, which is close to starving.

A further assumption: I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in honey yield - for me honey is only a by-product.
Quote:
It is a common beginner's mistake (including myself) to produce a long row of hives but weak hives.

Your clear implication is that I am a beginner. Another assumption.
Quote:
You maybe see bees in those hives made from small splits.

But I have not made a single split. I do NOT make splits. The formation of weak colonies by splitting is completely contrary to what I have been doing. Yet another assumption.
Quote:
Bottom line is, it is not a success to produce a number of hives from small splits.

As above.
Quote:
Also do the math. A really strong hive produces 100 kg/220 pounds of honey per year.

You're back to honey yield again - that appears to be your thing Bernhard, but it's not mine. I just breed bees ... lots of bees.
Quote:
Most beekeepers working with smaller splits may do increase eightfold every year,

As before.
Quote:
I don't say do not inspect the hive, or so.

Your words are on record - see earlier in this post.
Quote:
But forget about checkerboarding, stacking high hive towers, forget about stimulative feeding, about artificial broodnest expansion, small units and splits and other manipulations who are in the end, worthless.

But that is not 'sharing' - that is effectively lecturing.

Again, I repeat - you are setting yourself up as an expert: as the only person on this earth who knows how to 'read bees'.

So - a couple of tips (a bit of 'sharing' from this end ...):

Next time you see 'robbing' in action - have a think about the dynamics involved - i.e. the strong asserting their survival at the expense of the weak, rather than simply focussing on the 'cause' of the robbing - which I know you understand well enough, and it's cure.
For in that 100% natural activity lies the principle behind how I made significant increase this year, and have finished the year with so many strong healthy hives. Yes - the bees showed me ! The only part of the scenario I changed was to ensure that the weak colonies which were created in the process survived to function as minimal 'queen banks', until their turn came to receive the 'bee bombs'.

And if you don't understand the concept of 'bee bombs', then you might want to watch Michael Palmer's 'Sustainable Apiary' YouTube video - it's full of good, solid information for those who are willing to watch with an open mind.

Your way is NOT the only way - and you are not in a position to predict how my colonies will fair next year, simply because you do not know their current status, or the method used for their creation. You are labouring under your own false assumptions, and are making calamitous predictions based only upon those assumptions, and nothing more.

Colin

PS I don't need to read any studies about making increase - I'm already DOING it, FFS.
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time will tell. Good luck.
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imkeer
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope everyone will keep sharing...

Luc P. (BE)
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mal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember to acknowledge that a written forum is sometimes hard to express passionately held feelings without appearing over bearing and pompous, and especially if the forum is multinational/cultural.

It may help to imagine your protagonist sat opposite you in your favourite pub a couple of ales in giving discourse with zeal - and you sitting back listening quietly but knowing that in a couple of minutes you'll get your chance to come back with equal vigour. Enjoy !
Very Happy
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put a sticker to my monitor: Do not patronize! Do not lecture! Do not preach the evangelium! Wink

Amen to that.
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CharlieBnoobee
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know Bernhard. If you have the experience/s, and the similar experience of others, (aka research findings), and all of it supported by the math, then why not be zealous? Last time I checked, this website was devoted to the sharing of diverse experiences in beekeeping, not in giving persuasively slick sales presentations. Besides, a bit of vehement back-and-forth is so much more fun to spectate than a cordial exchange of demurely muted opinion. BORING.
There's the saying: “experience always trumps argument ”, but there are many situations which can be so complex, and involve so many different variables, that they often yield seemingly contradictory experiences. So the challenge is to sort through the details in hope that a fairly comprehensive and somewhat universally applicable set of principles can be obtained out of a welter of divergent experiences.

I don’t doubt for a second the validity of Colin’s experience. It’s just that God is in The Details, and so I’d sure like to hear more—much more— about how you, Colin, made your increases, as well as how they fare next year. (I’m trying not to be wishy-washy here, Colin.) Also, was it you who linked to the YouTube “Sustainable apiary” lecture by Mike Palmer? Inspiring and exciting, so thanks to you or whoever shared that!

Back to you, Bernhard, and just to throw another wrinkle into this discussion of divergent experiences, what about those of the Peronistas’ with their great bee caverns? Will a colony grow year-by-year if the conditions are right? By “colony growth” I mean an increase in the maximum seasonal brood population as well as the amount of reserve honey. Wouldn’t that have to be the case if Perone hives do in fact eventually get filled? It seems that all it would take is for the successive queens’ total annual egg deposits to exceed—if only by a little—the total annual bee attrition. It looks like the SpringerLink pdf might answer this, but not being a member, I couldn't find out.

Charlie
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BBC
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlieBnoobee wrote:
I don’t doubt for a second the validity of Colin’s experience. It’s just that God is in The Details, and so I’d sure like to hear more—much more— about how you, Colin, made your increases, as well as how they fare next year. (I’m trying not to be wishy-washy here, Colin.) Also, was it you who linked to the YouTube “Sustainable apiary” lecture by Mike Palmer? Inspiring and exciting, so thanks to you or whoever shared that!
Charlie


Hello Charlie - I was 'just passing' and looked in. As you've shown an interest, I'll start a new thread on how to make increase without making splits. I'll write it up this evening, as right now (early morning) I've got a Long Hive conversion to finish, which I'll be posting about when the paint's dry ...

Yes - I'm guilty of mentioning Mike Palmer's Sustainable Apiary - BTW- there's actually 2 parts to it. The second part I think is called "Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary". Interesting perhaps, but for me part one is the real McCoy. Mike's basic approach is similar to my own, although I only have a tiny fraction of the number of hives he has to work with.

Colin
BBC
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ingo50
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernhard, I have looked at the Springerlink Article you posted on 22October above. The abstract looks interesting. Unfortunately on data is given in it. Is the data available elsewhere, or do you have a summary?
best wishes, Ingo
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zaunreiter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which data you mean? Did you read the study or just the abstract? In case: http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/Rangel_et.al.2013%20copy.pdf
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Bernhard, I could not access the full article only the abstract, so many thanks for the full study. Will look at it later.
Ingo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlieBnoobee wrote:
I’d sure like to hear more—much more— about how you, Colin, made your increases, as well as how they fare next year.
Charlie


Hello Charlie - for some reason those few words have stuck in my mind over the last 24 hrs. I'm curious to know why you might think - assuming that this winter is kind, and all colonies survive ok (which I'm reasonably optimistic about, as they have plenty of stores) - why they might fare any differently next year from those made in any other way ?

Just wondered if you were thinking that something which happened to bees this season could somehow be carried-over to next year ?

Regards
Colin
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Queen not nourished well enough when reared, leading to queen failures and excessive swarming. Silent nosema outbreak through the queen. There is lot that can be passed over winter that makes colonies susceptable to all sorts of things next year. Surviving winter is one goal, surviving it in a good shape another. Makes a significant difference.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The goal-posts seem to have shifted.

Charlie was asking about how colonies made by a different method than usual would fare next year. You're now talking about how well queens were reared, their nutrition and so forth. These are - for all intents and purposes - totally unconnected.

Queen rearing plays no part in the method I have described. Of course extra queens are needed, that's pretty obvious, but how the beekeeper rears these is a totally separate issue - completely detached from the method of making increase.

Colin
BBC
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CharlieBnoobee
Guard Bee


Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 97
Location: Virginia,USA; S. Appalachians;USDA zn. 6a

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:04 am    Post subject: Over wintering colony size, splits, etc. Reply with quote

Yo, Colin;
My question regarding the bees’ welfare next year arose from Bernhard’s Oct. 22nd response to your Oct. 21st. post. He obviously has first, second and nth hand experience with small colonies doing poorly in their second year. Conversely, M. Palmer and certain of Dusko’s friends have had a great deal of the opposite sort of experience.

“I don’t know if the environment has anything to do with it but my local bee inspector has been making weak splits on only 2 combs for the last 20 years without losses. They even winter on 2 combs. As a matter of fact he has very few losses compared to other beeks in the same area.”
wrote Dusko. (Oct. 22 immediately following Bernhard’s post). And in Palmer’s case we’re talking hugeous amounts of experience. You seem to be going in the same direction as Palmer, judging from the next thread you started. (Speaking of which, how would you characterize the salient differences between splitting and increasing via dividing a colony into separate nucs?)

So here I am, the hapless newby, hiding in the bushes and watching, while clutching desperately to my right to not have an opinion yet still trying bravely—and alone—to “sort through the details…” as I mentioned above (1st para, Oct.25). It’s all so very unfair. (Whine, Whimper.)

Continuing to whine, what about my last para. of that Oct. 25 post? The one re the Perone hive experience? Bernhard says a colony’s brood will reach the size of about two Warré boxes, and not exceed that in succeeding seasons—which seems to be contradicted by the Perone thing.

Waiting for anyone to Clarify the Conundrums.
Charlie
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Adam Rose
Silver Bee


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Posts: 586
Location: Manchester, UK

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: Over wintering colony size, splits, etc. Reply with quote

CharlieBnoobee wrote:

Continuing to whine, what about my last para. of that Oct. 25 post? The one re the Perone hive experience? Bernhard says a colony’s brood will reach the size of about two Warré boxes, and not exceed that in succeeding seasons—which seems to be contradicted by the Perone thing.


Charlie,

Bernhard is IMO correct about the size of the brood nest. I was attracted to the ( lack of ) management philosophy of the Perone but eventually decided that the volume was simply too big. I have evolved my thoughts and experiments towards a stack of boxes / Japanese style hive. Andy ( PeoplesHive ) has ended up in a very similar place, but starting from a Warre. The management philosophy is basically the same, but in a box about the same height but with much smaller horizontal dimensions ( 30x30cm or even 25x25cm ). Essentially we are creating vertical log hives out of straight planks of wood, by making square slabs of wood and stacking them on top of each other.

I also noticed a post recently from someone who said that they housed a new swarm in a Perone which absconded in the first few days. This is not surprising in the light of Tom Seeley's experiments, when he concluded that bees look for cavities of approximately 40l. If they look naturally for 40l cavities, why would we give them a huge Perone style box to fill ?

Having said that, these hives are not intended for serious honey production. That's not to say I won't harvest - I am looking forward to doing so next year - but that is not the driving motivation. You might want to adopt a different management style if that is a significant motivation of yours.

Adam.
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prakel
Guard Bee


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Dorset, UK

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Over wintering colony size, splits, etc. Reply with quote

CharlieBnoobee wrote:
Conversely, M. Palmer and certain of Dusko’s friends have had a great deal of the opposite sort of experience.


I don't think that Mr Palmer advocates making weak splits, I may of course be wrong but it's not what I've gleaned from his videos and posts on various forums.

Weak and strong aren't necessarily numerical issues; I reckon it's more about colony cohesion, the way the unit works as an entity. Some small splits can be very well balanced in the same way as it's possible to come across established colonies where something has gone out of balance

But, in my opinion it is always a mistake to make a weak split. Why would anyone wish to see stock struggle through weakness when they can just as easily be given the opportunity to prosper through strength from the outset?
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crazybean
New Bee


Joined: 03 Oct 2016
Posts: 2
Location: Gmajnica

PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read Tim book and I find it very interesting. His ideas are indeed time tested. Local beekeeper and crown bee instructor has published a book in german regarding swarming. He also talk about putting extra box between two brood boxes.
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