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Organic acid resistance?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    beekeeping forum -> Bee health: the treatment (or not) of bee pests and diseases
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EricConcE
Nurse Bee


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 31
Location: Aveiro, Portugal

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:05 am    Post subject: Organic acid resistance? Reply with quote

While many apiculturists in Europe have been using Formic acid for years, there does not appear to be any resistance building within the mite in these areas. As far as other organic acids (such as oxalic) I stumbled across a portion of Randy Oliver's blog that states: I "strongly suggest using it [oxalic] to knock back mite levels only once a year. Otherwise, we’ll just be breeding for OA-resistant mites—especially if you’re also using formic acid!" (see: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/)
Does anyone have any interesting insights regarding resistance being built against these acids?
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Che Guebuddha
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1549
Location: Hårlev, Stevns Kommune, Denmark

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont have any info regarding acid-resistance, however treatments of any kind stand in the way of Varroa-Honeybee Co-adapting. Acids will save the weak colony which would otherwise die together with the Varroa which didnt co-adapt and the next season both will spread their genes into the locality spreading their non co-adapted genes. Simple to understand if one is willing.

Now get ready for a hot debate Laughing
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EricConcE
Nurse Bee


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 31
Location: Aveiro, Portugal

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Che, I would love to go completely treatment free in my area, but with consistent brood rearing year round I find this to be nearly impossible. After moving I was hopeful to find treatment free beekeepers - but haven't been able to find even one. I am striving to greatly limit the use of any input in my hives however. As far as varroa control (treatment free even) in areas with consistent brood rearing, I'd be very interested to hear your strategies. If you don't mind, I'll start a new thread to keep this one on topic!
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Che Guebuddha
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1549
Location: Hårlev, Stevns Kommune, Denmark

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you worry about those around you having bees without brood break? I dont worry about that at all. They do what they do and I do what I do. Their bees cant do what they should and my bees get to do what they want.

I hear some beeks here in Denmark saying that one cant have TF bees if not isolated from others and that one cant breed for TF bees without having at least 100 colonies Rolling Eyes
As Solomon Parker said; "those are not TF bees, those are isolated bees"

The more hives you have in the same apiary the more drifting there will be and not just Varroa will be an issue but other diseases too. Mother nature does not like mono-cultures and will strike with a pest to create balance.

My strategy is same/similar to other TF beekeepers, so I do the same others have been doing for a long time now with good results. Mind you that I have been keeping bees for 3 years going into my 4th now; breed only from those which survive (cant breed from the colonies which died so that one is easy), let them have a brood break via swarming or artificial splitting, low level of interfering, let them have all the Drones they want, let them keep the old queens if they prefer them, non-treating which makes sure the hives micro biome is healthy, natural cell size. Keeping 6-10 colonies at one location. Important to mention is that when Im buying a colony I always buy the one with a 2 year old queen not younger. This tells me that at least she did survive 2 years with or without treatments, so I have a better chance to get the TF bees.

I dont even focus on Varroa at all and never did. My biggest concern is the loss of biodiversity and the manic use of pesticides/fungicides/etc...cides. Im concerned with how to help my bees detox from these deadly cocktails (comb renewal, chaga tea, having rotting wood chips in the hives vicinity to encourage micelium growth).

I know how you feel, I too tried to find those who are TF here and only found one in Sweden who has great results (7 years in a locality with other beekeepers who treat).
So far I dont know of any in Denmark.

Sure you can start another thread if you want.
By the way, for more on TF Beekeeping visit the Treatment Free Beekeepers on Facebook and hear directly from those who are doing it.
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Che Guebuddha wrote:
As Solomon Parker said; "those are not TF bees, those are isolated bees"


Well said and true. This is what nature does to fix a trait. Read "Return to resistance" from Raoul Robinson to understand. See PDF:
http://sharebooks.com/system/files/Return-to-Resistance.pdf

Che Guebuddha wrote:
directly from those who are doing it.


Welcome to the church of treatment free believers... Rolling Eyes

Better have a true concept! Or you'll loose bees unnecessarily.
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ingo50
Scout Bee


Joined: 30 May 2014
Posts: 311
Location: Newport, Gwent, Wales, UK

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Solomon Parker. Does anyone know why his podcasts have stopped? I was enjoying them and learned a lot about strict treatment free beekeeping.
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Che Guebuddha
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1549
Location: Hårlev, Stevns Kommune, Denmark

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Better have a true concept! Or you'll loose bees unnecessarily.


Its all in the human perception really Smile what is a loss, what is not a loss. Even Seeley sais that most new swarms dont make it, up to 70% (?) die in their first winter. Is that something Nature has lost? Im sure Nature's focus is on those 30% which survived and will spread their strong genes the next season. Why should I do differently from Nature? Why should I do anything at all really since we humans will NEVER fully understand Bien and hence our actions can do much damage to Bien.

Its not a religious belief to realise that Elephants are not the Zoo they are kept in, and the same for realizing that Honeybees are not beekeeping (with all its human manipulations). Bees are Bees. (full stop)

Bees can talk to you if you listen. You said that as well I think. My bees have told me to let them be and try and fix the damaged environment as good as I can. Maybe my bees didnt read the book called "True Concept" you mentioned Wink Very Happy

By the way I don't contemplate "my losses" I only contemplate the survivors. As mentioned its about perception.
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Che Guebuddha
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1549
Location: Hårlev, Stevns Kommune, Denmark

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaunreiter wrote:


Che Guebuddha wrote:
directly from those who are doing it.


Welcome to the church of treatment free believers... Rolling Eyes

Better have a true concept! Or you'll loose bees unnecessarily.


By the way, what is the diference between you telling me that treating is necessery and those who say treatments are no good. I have to either choose to have faith in you or in the TF beeks, right Smile

So if I choose to have faith in you am I still a "believer"? You see no matter what way I choose the opposition will call me a "church believer" Smile Humanity is infected with something called Opinions, we all are (but that is a more spiritual debate).

I had conventional beeks calling me an animal obuser for not treating my colonies and I had TF beeks calling me "treater" for giving my bees Nettle and Camomille tea in the sugar syrup Laughing So it seems I dont belong anywhere Smile and Im ok with that. Hell, I dont even call my self a treatment free beek, I simply dont trust treatments doing any good for the hive's micro-biome and it stands in the way of weak colonies and non-adapted varroa crossing to the other side of the Rainbow.
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zaunreiter
Moderator Bee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3097
Location: Germany, NorthWest

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Che Guebuddha wrote:
I had conventional beeks calling me an animal obuser for not treating my colonies and I had TF beeks calling me "treater" for giving my bees Nettle and Camomille tea in the sugar syrup Laughing So it seems I dont belong anywhere Smile


Laughing

Sounds familiar to me! People keep on bashing me, too. To me that is a good sign, because the truth is somewhere in between, not in the extreme.

So we are on the right track.

Read the document on resistance.
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EricConcE
Nurse Bee


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 31
Location: Aveiro, Portugal

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Che Guebuddha wrote:
chaga tea, having rotting wood chips in the hives vicinity to encourage micelium growth.


This is new to me but a pretty amazing concept - I have pounds of wild chaga in my herb collection for it's adaptogenic properties (king of the mushrooms!). Is this along the same line of thinking?- Aiding with adaptogens to help against biological/physiological stressors? As for mycelium - do you use certain species in order to break down chemicals in the environment? (Research from Paul Stamets has shown Pleurotus ostreatus to be very good at this - and not too difficult to grow).
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Che Guebuddha
Golden Bee


Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1549
Location: Hårlev, Stevns Kommune, Denmark

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Im following Paul's idea about mushrooms and this is my first season trying it out. Well, not really trying anything Im just doing it and so far I can see a few bees drinking chaga tea from the bowl placed close to the hives. Will see how they take it throughout the season. I dont grow any particular mycelium I just let it grow on its own. My whole kitchen garden is totally covered in wood chips (wood chip gardening) with plenty of fungal activity there. Started it last autumn so early days to say anything just now.

My wife and I drink Chaga tea daily to give our body some protection from the pesticide environment we live in. I hope it works as described.
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